Vintage WW II Scabbard Question

[davidf99]

I scored a vintage WW II khukuri the othe day, pictured here with scabbard. It's a practical length (17") and weight (23oz). Feels great in the hand. The edge shows signs of usage sometime in the past, but the blade is in great condition; the photos don't do it justice.

My question is about the scabbard. It fits the khukuri perfectly and the leather has no deep splits or cracks, but the original leather was coated with some kind of shiny black lacquer (or maybe clear lacquer over black dye), and the black stuff is flaking off in spots. You can see it in the photos, expecially if you inflate the pictures. The leather seems to be brown (probably its natural color) under the black coating.

I'd like to know a good way to preserve the leather. My first thought was to apply some leather conditioner; I have a bottle of Lexol handy. But that might not sink in, due to the existing shiny black coat, and it might not stop the "flaking." My second thought was to coat the whole scabbard with some kind of durable clear protection, such as varethane.

The scabbard has a frog (not a belt hanger, but it includes slots for karda and chakma) that seems to be frozen on. Looks like the lacquer was applied over everything, which is probably why the scabbard has not fallen apart after 70 years.

I don't want to do major surgery like removing the existing black coat. The flaking problem is not bad enough justify that, and I might do more harm than good.

At the moment I see three options:

1. Do nothing. This blade and scabbard probably will never see the outside of my house, so I could live with the flaking, as long as it doesn't get worse over time. But I would prefer to do some cleanup and add some protection.

2. Try the leather conditioner. I could do a small area first, to see how it interacts with the existing black coating.

3. Top coat the whole thing with a hard, clear protective substance. What would be good to use? Will it stick without sanding the existing surface. I'm concerned that even light sanding might make the flaking worse or produce bare, brown spots.

I'm not worried that the scabbard won't look "old" when I'm done. I'm not a museum or any kind of dealer. If I could make it look the way it was when it was new, I would do that, but I'll settle for a way to stop the flaking and protect the surface.

I'd appreciate any ideas from people who have experience with this kind of problem. Not guesswork: I can do that on my own.

Now let's see if I can make the photos appear in this posting:

 

[Karda]

Your best bet on this one is to do nothing.
Once the hide is alligatored like in your pictures it's pretty much a lost cause to try to do much more than prevent in from falling apart.
The black part could be the dye and/or polish used to blacken the sheath, or it could be the actual black leather skin.
Once they reach this state the two are pretty much inseparable. If you remove the top coat, you will likely also be removing the skin of the hide, leaving the hardened pulp of the leather behind. this likely will not take to dye well and will never look the same as a scabbard should.
You could re-apply the lacquer or varnish already used, but you would have to figure out what was used.
You could apply something else instead, but only time will tell if that decision is a good idea or not.

 

[J W Bensinger]

That looks like an aircrew sized m43 (i don't know what the designation is, sorry). Given that it's WW2 and the scabbard is not actually shedding leather I would be inclined to leave it, and be very gentle when handling it. I wouldn't want to mess with it unless it was already falling off. Never seen one mysel with a black scabbard instead of brown- I bet that's boot polish(field expedient preservative). Just my 2 cents. Nice khuk.

 

[Gehazi]

is good khukuri for sure, and ww2, gotta agree with both above, that it was probably boot polish and its not worth trying to restore, its a great blade, probably still very serviceable

 

[blue lander]

All I'd do is coat it in some clear kiwi shoe wax to maybe slow any further degradation. Trying anything restorative would probably just make it worse.

 

[Bawanna]

To me it looks in pretty decent shape given it's age. I'd tend to want to stop the drying out process although it may have dried as much as it's gonna get and if it's not subjected to elements may be good for another 100 years.

I'd still be sorely tempted to nourish it somehow. Hoof Flex, or mineral oil. I don't think a poly coating like varathane would be a good option. It would seal but not nourish and also probably ruin the look in my feeble opinion.

It's a nice setup, that's for sure.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Use renaissance wax and then store it in a nice place and don't touch it. Ever
Seriously good shape for its age :thumbup:

 

[ndoghouse]

Very nice blade! Looks Khul just like it is! Its peened in two spots! Was that typical of WWII construction? Are there any markings on the blade? Id put that on a Bawanna Oak stand and admire the heck out of it:thumbup:

 

[Dirtbiker]

That sheath wasn't black originally it was a natural brown. It looks to have been dyed or painted with an acrylic leather dye. I'd condition it and leave it be.

 

[pugs75]

Love it Dave, I would have to agree with Karda, I would leave it. If you wanted to condition it I would highly recommend Montana Pine Pitch Dressing, I use it on all my leather and love it.

 

[kronckew]

Very nice blade! Looks Khul just like it is! Its peened in two spots! Was that typical of WWII construction? Are there any markings on the blade? Id put that on a Bawanna Oak stand and admire the heck out of it:thumbup:

i have a much earlier nepali armoury model, also chiruwa, the butt plate is held by two peened spikes on the end of the full tang.
View attachment 410667

View attachment 410665

i have seen other models with similar two-spot butt plate peenings.

 

[ndoghouse]

Thats is a sweet blade! Dont see Napali made full tangs much. Love the shape of that handle!

i have a much earlier nepali armoury model, also chiruwa, the butt plate is held by two peened spikes on the end of the full tang.
i have seen other models with similar two-spot butt plate peenings.

 

[davidf99]

Update on the WW II:

This knife feels so good in the hand that I can't just store it away. Upon closer examination, I noticed a slight gap between one of the scales and the tang, so you can see all the way through when you hold it up to the light at just the right angle. The scales are completely solid and tight because of the pins, but I didn't like the gap. For one thing, it lets moisture inside to corrode the tang. So I taped off the handle, squeezed in some Devcon two-ton epoxy, and sanded it down. Problem solved. I also filed a bit of steel off the butt cap, which was protruding due to shrinkage of the wood. Remarkably little shrinkage, given that this knife is about 70 years old. Having started what amounts to a restoration, I plan to do some more work on the handle: sand, polish and several coats of tung oil.

The scabbard is another matter. Many good ideas in the replies to my original question. Some of them have been rendered moot because the black top coat has been flaking off by the hour. Mostly because I held the scabbard in one hand while doing the abovementioned work on the handle. At this point the proposal to "do nothing" is no longer an option.

The top coat appears to be some kind of black paint. I've been coaxing it off using the sharp karda that came with the knife. The good news is that the brown leather underneath seems to be in decent shape, though very dry. So my plan now is to try to get all the black stuff off, then apply several coats of leather conditioner. I did lose the "frog" portion that can be seen in the two photos. It was in much worse shape than the main scabbard, and was pretty much held together by the black paint. That's no great loss.

I'll post another picture or two while the scabbard is still halfway "peeled". Hopefully this will turn out well. If not, I'll either make a wooden scabbard or commission a scabbard from one of our talented forumites.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

By any chance could the black flakes be cosmoline?

 

[davidf99]

By any chance could the black flakes be cosmoline?

Very unlikely. Wikipedia gives this description of cosmoline:

"Cosmoline is the genericized trademark for a generic class of rust preventives .... that are a brown colored wax-like mass; have a slight fluorescence; and have a petroleum-like odor and taste (as detected when working with it).... It is always brown in color ...."

The black stuff that I am describing is on the leather scabbard, not the blade, and it doesn't match the description at all. The pieces that have been flaking off are not waxy. It's more like when old paint flakes off a wall, but smaller pieces.

On the other hand, the vintage Longleaf that I got a few months ago from Atlanta Cutlery was coated (the blade, not the scabbard) with a thick layer of greasy stuff that matches the description of cosmoline perfectly.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I only know that stuff from my historical Kukri too. There it was only on metal and wood. Could imagine that it behaves differently in leather were it gets absorbed faster and dries up.
Since you also know cosmoline you would still recognize it I bet. Did somebody paint it afterwards?
I got a vintage sheath and it's not flaking. Just looks like old leather and seems to be thinner than what I imagine the original state would have been. Kind of like parchment. Soaked mine in Lanolin and rubbed it with renaissance wax.

 

[Silverjohn]

Hi there,

Nice MKII you have there, not an aircrew model (they have shorter blades with a bigger belly) but nice all the same.

I had almost exactly the same quandary myself. I bought a MKII in an almost identical scabbard. The previous owner had attempted to repair the old damaged scabbard and had started removing the black topcoat. However they did more harm than good, stripping patches of top skin away and revealing the dry crumbly under leather. This is what it looked like when I got hold of it:

I felt that it would just make things worse if I continued with the stripping process, so i just opted for a fresh coat of leather dye and then a light covering of dubbin. The scabbard is a manky old thing and never going to be pretty, but I think it looks better now than when I got it:

As a side note, MKII came in black scabbards too. My M43 stamped MKII has a very nice black scabbard:

Anyway, good luck with your restoration