Visible knife clip grounds for pat down search?

L

Lavan

Joined
Nov 8, 2000
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I read in the latest Blade that there is a Kansas FEDERAL court decision that a knife clip alone is grounds for a pat down search.

Is this true?

I googled Kansas and knife clip and everything I can think of and find nothing addressing this that isn't also connected to something further of criminal nature.

:confused:
 
Lavan said:
I read in the latest Blade that there is a Kansas FEDERAL court decision that a knife clip alone is grounds for a pat down search.

Is this true?

I googled Kansas and knife clip and everything I can think of and find nothing addressing this that isn't also connected to something further of criminal nature.

:confused:
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im sorry, when you say you read this in the "latest blade", is that a magazine or a web site? i ask because i read somewhere recently (cant remeber where) that stashing a folding knife of legal length deep down in your pocket can be interpreted as illegal concealment of a deadly weapon whereas clipping it to your pocket(so that only a small portion of the tip of the handle is visible to the world is considered open carry (like carrying a fixed blade in a sheath, on your belt) and therefore legal. havent found any state statutes here in WA or anywhere else to back this up but would be very interested to hear other points of view on this subject especially LEO.
 
tenaciousj said:
im sorry, when you say you read this in the "latest blade", is that a magazine or a web site? i ask because i read somewhere recently (cant remeber where) that stashing a folding knife of legal length deep down in your pocket can be interpreted as illegal concealment of a deadly weapon whereas clipping it to your pocket(so that only a small portion of the tip of the handle is visible to the world is considered open carry (like carrying a fixed blade in a sheath, on your belt) and therefore legal. havent found any state statutes here in WA or anywhere else to back this up but would be very interested to hear other points of view on this subject especially LEO.
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If said knife is being carried in accordance with the law you are less likely to have a problem at all. To your point about carrying a legal knife "deep down in your pocket" then makes it illegal sounds absolutely absurd to me. I understand that this is something you read and not your thought so I'm not trying to flame you here.

My state specifically states the size blade that can be carried concealed. If I carry a knife to those specs it won't matter how "deep in my pocket" I carry it. I'd be interested in reading the article you read, hopefully there is more to it that would make that statement a bit more valid.

To the OP - As a civilian I would fully expect that if I were engaged in a situation with an LEO that he/she would pat me down. The presence of that clip shows you are carrying a knife and a potential risk to the LEO.

That being said - you can also be pat down without the pocket clip.
 
tenaciousj (welcome to Bladeforums! :) ) in New York City, knives MUST be concealed, no sheath or clip or imprint showing. Logic, of course, is out the window here: neighboring jurisdictions have contradictory laws.

Could the idea be to keep knife owners so confused we just give it up altogether?
 
Esav Benyamin said:
tenaciousj (welcome to Bladeforums! :) ) in New York City, knives MUST be concealed, no sheath or clip or imprint showing. Logic, of course, is out the window here: neighboring jurisdictions have contradictory laws.

Could the idea be to keep knife owners so confused we just give it up altogether?
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That part of it is truely disturbing. I never knew that.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
tenaciousj (welcome to Bladeforums! :) ) in New York City, knives MUST be concealed, no sheath or clip or imprint showing. Logic, of course, is out the window here: neighboring jurisdictions have contradictory laws.

Could the idea be to keep knife owners so confused we just give it up altogether?
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What about pointy noses? Need masks?
or "nips" on cold days. Now THOSE would warrant a pat down.

Here's the extent of what I found, but it was in Texas and Blade magazine states the federal law was in a Kansas court.

http://www.4thcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=14171

:confused::confused:
 
I was headed into the State Fair two years ago and I had my Hissatsu folder clipped to my pocket. We went to the Fair twice that year. The first time, I just walked on through, and that was that. I walked around the entire time and there were no issues.

The second time, there were civilians in t-shirts proclaiming their temporary authority, sitting at a table in front of the gate. They were checking bags. Now, keep in mind, the parking for the State Fair is so far away you have to take a shuttle bus to get from the parking to the front entrance. At no time or place anywhere along the route, or at the parking lot, was there a sign saying, "no knives." There's never really been any security at the State Fair, to speak of, except for the scores of State Troopers who are on hand all the time (which is why there's never been a need). But for some reason, this year, some pinch-faced hag with a head full of her authority decided she could treat me like crap. She saw the clip of my knife and said, in a shrill voice, 'Sirrr.... Is that a kniiiiiiife?"

"Uh, yeah," I said.

"You can't bring that in here."

"What?"

"You can't bring that in here," she insisted.

"Fine." I walked 50 yards away behind a shed and put it in my pocket.

We were walking through the gate when either that woman or someone just like her -- I don't remember -- came running up to me shrieking, "SIR! You can't bring a KNIFE in here!"

I looked at her as if she was insane. She pointed at my pocket -- and I realized she was pointing at the pocket clip of my flashlight. I pulled it out of my pocket. "That," I said, shaking at her, "is a flashlight." Then the miserable fool tried to half-heartedly pat me down!

Now, this is someone with no legal authority whatsoever, but clearly her suspicion that I was some clip-visible malcontent gave her the right to pat me down, in her tiny mind.
 
Anything at all that would cause an leo to feel there is a potential threat to safety is grounds for pat down. Acting nervous during questioning is enough, a visible knife would definitely count.
 
In my area police can conduct a pat down if they have "reasonable suspicion" that a person is up to something criminal. Using even minor infractions - something as routine as spitting, littering, loitering, or holding an open container of alcohol - is a rationale to stop a suspect person and conduct a legal pat down ... for officer safety reasons.

If they feel the outline of a weapon you become eligible for a free colonoscopy at central booking.
 
hardheart said:
Anything at all that would cause an leo to feel there is a potential threat to safety is grounds for pat down. Acting nervous during questioning is enough, a visible knife would definitely count.
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No, I don't think so. :grumpy:

It's perfectly legal to carry knives openly in Texas, and that in no way constitutes grounds for a search.
 
joe-bob said:
No, I don't think so. :grumpy:

It's perfectly legal to carry knives openly in Texas, and that in no way constitutes grounds for a search.
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Do not confuse a pat down with a search. A pat down or a frisk is the external feelings of a garment. A search is exactly what it sounds like and is completly different.
 
it's perfectly legal to be openly jittery when talking to a police officer. if you are, you will get frisked.
 
As for Califronia, you can carry your folder clipped on your pocket, or totally concealed in your pocket....doesn't matter! Do be sure you don't run afoul of any local 3" or the state 4" in public buildings/meetings laws, however.

As for this being probably cause to "pat you down", you are completely legal and have nothing to hide (no crack pipe in your pocket I assume), so nothing to lose....except a little wasted time.
 
reconranger said:
As for this being probably cause to "pat you down", you are completely legal and have nothing to hide (no crack pipe in your pocket I assume), so nothing to lose....except a little wasted time.
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This is a naive and unfortunate attitude. You have a right to go about your business without being stopped and questioned, unless the police need information from you.

I was stopped one evening by a police officer, who was immediately joined by another. They asked for my ID and asked me what I was doing there. (Crossing the street to go home on the other side of the street. :) )

Meanwhile, they attracted a nice crowd, everybody staring and wondering what I had done. Nothing to lose ... except my reputation?

On another occasion, two officers stopped in front of my building where I was sitting on the front steps and asked if they could speak with me. Sure. Got up, walked over, both stayed in the vehicle. Looked from a distance like a friendly chat.

There is a right way and a wrong way, and for an officer to decide he can treat anyone like a suspect, even when he hasn't got any particular crime in mind, is not good.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
On another occasion, two officers stopped in front of my building where I was sitting on the front steps and asked if they could speak with me. Sure. Got up, walked over, both stayed in the vehicle. Looked from a distance like a friendly chat.
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In that case, they ignored officer safety, which I put above the impression total strangers would have about a situation. I hope they weren't questioning your activity, because if they had reason to wonder what you were doing, then they had reason to get out of the car to give themselves an opportunity to react.

A parent of one of my Soldier's was killed on duty recently, and a fellow I was at the academy with was attacked in a large fight in a totally unrelated incident, so my feelings are clearly skewed.
 
Clearly skewed. I was sitting on the front steps of my building in NYC after coming home from work. A new tenant came home, saw me there, and called the police. The idea that police have to treat every interaction as a life-threatening emergency is over the top.
 
Standing up instead of sitting down is hardly acting like you are at the highest threat condition. Complacency is a dangerous thing, but discretion must also be observed. There's no need to make things worse for the person, but there's even less reason to sacrifice basic safety principles; a person's reputation is secondary. But every call is unique, it's up to the officer's judgment to do what is appropriate. Erring on the side of caution is always preferable, imo.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
This is a naive and unfortunate attitude. You have a right to go about your business without being stopped and questioned, unless the police need information from you.

I was stopped one evening by a police officer, who was immediately joined by another. They asked for my ID and asked me what I was doing there. (Crossing the street to go home on the other side of the street. :) )

Meanwhile, they attracted a nice crowd, everybody staring and wondering what I had done. Nothing to lose ... except my reputation?

On another occasion, two officers stopped in front of my building where I was sitting on the front steps and asked if they could speak with me. Sure. Got up, walked over, both stayed in the vehicle. Looked from a distance like a friendly chat.

There is a right way and a wrong way, and for an officer to decide he can treat anyone like a suspect, even when he hasn't got any particular crime in mind, is not good.
Click to expand...

What can I say...some people just attract unwanted attention!!!
 
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