Vulcanized Fiber Spacers

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I know that it has been discussed many times here before . . . that vulcanized fiber swells when it gets wet.

Yesterday, I put a piece of 0.032" thick black vulcanized fiber in a bowl of water with a splash of liquid bleach. About 24 hours later is is 0.048" thick but still colorfast.

Use this for what it is worth. If your blades are subject to sustained soaking wet conditions, then vulcanized fiber is probably not a good choice for spacers. If you are making a knife that you know will only be submerged for minutes at a time for washing, then it still may be viable.

Has anyone found a high temperature plastic which is available in thin colored sheets as an alternative? I dislike G10 due to the fibrous texture. At least vulcanized fiber is solid in color and available in earth tones.
 
I'm not 100% but, I believe I heard of people using very thin micarta for spacers. Rapid River Knifeworks claim to use it on their knives also. Would be great if someone knew where these can be purchased as I'm stuck in the same situation as you. More importantly I want white, and white G10 spacer material is sold out of the few places I order from.
 
Just this weekend I was looking for more white G10 liner material and noticed it's out at USA Knife maker and Alpha Knife supply where I usually get it. Masecraft supply has some white G10 liner material however. I wanted to try something different so I ordered some white "High Tech Plastic Spacer" material from Texas Knife Supply that I'm going to try instead. I'm hoping it's easier to keep white than G10. We'll see...I might go back to G10
 
I used some on a knife for a guy that works in and around water all day everyday. After 6 months or so it is starting to swell just a little. I wouldn't use it for a dive knife but if it's just getting wet from washing or occasional rain, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. It's also way cheaper,
 
Some colors(red for instance) look a lot better/richer/bolder in fiber, but from all the horror stories, from reputable makers, I'm not gonna bother with it anymore.

Unless you're achieving quality, that you can't achieve with anything else, then I really don't see the point in using it. Sure you're saving money but it's marginal.
 
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Micheal I always thought that about phenolic materials and never gave it a try yet. I figured I was wrong or missing something, still a rookie here.

Instead I bought very thin sheets of kydex on amazon in .030" if memory serves me. Any reason it wouldn't work? I just glued up my first handle using it and it seems to bond and keep its color, but i haven't finished the knife yet.

-Clint
 
Augus7us said:
Micheal I always thought that about phenolic materials and never gave it a try yet. I figured I was wrong or missing something, still a rookie here.

Instead I bought very thin sheets of kydex on amazon in .030" if memory serves me. Any reason it wouldn't work? I just glued up my first handle using it and it seems to bond and keep its color, but i haven't finished the knife yet.

-Clint
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Kydex will melt with too much heat. Any grinding and what not will melt it like crazy and possible "contaminate" your handle material with thick sticky glue.
 
I have tried some of the plastic spacer material from Trugrit .. If I remember correctly I couldn't get it to bond right . Probably best for hidden tang type work . How bad could it be if you use epoxy to fabricate your handle scales and install them with epoxy and then polish the edges I cant see how it would draw in much water .
 
Marko3 said:
I have tried some of the plastic spacer material from Trugrit .. If I remember correctly I couldn't get it to bond right . Probably best for hidden tang type work . How bad could it be if you use epoxy to fabricate your handle scales and install them with epoxy and then polish the edges I cant see how it would draw in much water .
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I'll look into their selection. Thanks. When I use spacers between my guards and scales on full-tang knives, I always pin the stacks of spacers onto the end faces of the scale with a set of 1/16" diameter pins. So a relative lack of bonding ability is not of issue to me.

Mike L.
 
colu41 said:
Kydex will melt with too much heat. Any grinding and what not will melt it like crazy and possible "contaminate" your handle material with thick sticky glue.
Click to expand...

...but if you don't use too much heat it works fine. i've used black kydex at least 5 times for liners and spacers with great results. sand and polish up pretty well too. food for thought.
 
Marko3 said:
I have tried some of the plastic spacer material from Trugrit .. If I remember correctly I couldn't get it to bond right . Probably best for hidden tang type work . How bad could it be if you use epoxy to fabricate your handle scales and install them with epoxy and then polish the edges I cant see how it would draw in much water .
Click to expand...

I was talking to Jeff Mutz at tru-grit and if i'm not mistaken he said "CA glue" ( super glue/crazy glue ) works well for that particular spacer material. Epoxies don't stick to it well.
 
"Vulcanized" fiber material absolutely sucks. Literally... it absorbs moisture...

It has all the characteristics of a material that simply cannot stand up to atmospheric conditions.

I don't give a fat flying leap at a roll of bouncing barbed-wire if someone says, "well I soaked it with super-glue and it seemed kinda OK in my air-conditioned living room"... gimme a break.

G10 has never let me down. Ever.
 
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james terrio said:
"Vulcanized" fiber material absolutely sucks. Literally... it absorbs moisture...

It has all the characteristics of a material that simply cannot stand up to atmospheric conditions.

I don't give a fat flying leap at a roll of bouncing barbed-wire if someone says, "well I soaked it with super-glue and it seemed kinda OK in my air-conditioned living room"... gimme a break.

G10 has never let me down. Ever.
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LOL .. Well alright then..
 
I'll take the unpopular approach. If somebody soaks my assembled knife in bleach water for 24 hours, is it my "fault" if it turns up messy because I used fiber liner?

If I use fiber liner, superglue it to my handle scales, epoxy the stack to the tang, guess what bad stuff happens.... nothing. The "fiber spacers are the devil" thing is a mountain out of a mole hill.

I don't have empirical data on knife failures due to fiber spacer. Does anybody? Anybody's Loveless come apart or lose value because of fiber spacer problems? All I can say, I've built knives for 7 years, many with liners, and have yet to see a problem, even with the older ones.

Use what you like. I'll stick to fiber, as the colors are better and I'm not buying the hype.

EDIT: I found some old threads where Chuck from Alpha had seen several Loveless knives where the spacer material had evidently failed. In another thread, Chuck cited a failure after the knife had been run through a dishwasher. While I respect Chuck's place in the knife industry and don't doubt his experience, I would still argue that running a knife through a dishwasher is a good way to kill a knife, and that the customer's behavior is to blame rather than the spacer material. We make multi-hundred dollar tools. It amazes me how some people abuse them.
 
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""Vulcanized" fiber material absolutely sucks. Literally... it absorbs moisture...

It has all the characteristics of a material that simply cannot stand up to atmospheric conditions."

Replacing the words "Vulcanized fiber" with "wood" is also a true statement...
 
I have first hand experience with failed vulcanized fiber. I've only had it happen to a couple of knives - one was mine and one was another maker - and both times I could feel a gap with my fingernail where the fiber had swelled and shrunk.

I've never had any G10 or micarta fail so that's what I use. My opinion is similar to Jason's below, only opposite

Jason Fry said:
We make multi-hundred dollar tools. It amazes me how some people abuse them.
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I make multi-hundred dollar knives that should at least stand up to being put in a dishwasher. I'm not suggesting that anyone do it to a good knife, but if my multi-hundred dollar knife can't at least stand up to a dishwasher then I should rethink my materials and approach. Custom knives are supposed to be superior to cheap store-bought knives, not just more expensive.

I'm sure plenty of people will call the fiber material "good enough" but "good enough" isn't good enough for me.
 
I think it's a bit like saying a Mercedes is a bad car because it gets torn up offroading. A knife can be made to withstand the dishwasher, but that doesn't mean that a wood handled hunter with fiber liners belongs in there.

Used for its intended purpose and treated with care, said wood handled hunter will last for many years without a hitch. Wood and liners aren't chosen because they're impervious to the elements, but rather because they're aesthetically pleasing. Left out in the field in the rain for a week, or left to soak a few hours in the sink, or left on the dashboard in the summer time, and all bets are off, but to me that's like offroading your Mercedes.

It's not a shortcut or a slight in quality to choose wood or fiber, to me, but rather a slight in care of the owner when such a knife fails outside its intended use.

Edit: I just realized that I wandered back to what the OP said.
If your blades are subject to sustained soaking wet conditions, then vulcanized fiber is probably not a good choice for spacers. If you are making a knife that you know will only be submerged for minutes at a time for washing, then it still may be viable.
Click to expand...
 
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You are completely accurate Jason. There's not one knife to rule them all. Some knives are made to be abused and some are made to sit in the safe or on the fireplace mantle. I know one very respected maker who only uses CA glue to attach his handles because he says that no one will use a $2,000 ivory and Damascus knife to chop trees. The question at hand is, is the VF as durable as G10? In my opinion it is not.

The only benefit I've ever seen to using the fiber liners was that you can't get a true red in any other liner. For me, I use the red G10 and polish it as high as I can and still only get maroon at best. I wish there was something as vibrant as red VF that I could use and still have piece of mind.
 
Does an oil finish soak into fiber spacers too, doesn't it? If it's the case i see no harm in using it as any other handle material. But i'm also making carbon steel blades, that's why i have a more respectful approach to the material care anyway.
 
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