Wabi-sabi

7

7rip13a

Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
902
Evening fellas,

I've recently been a convert to slipjoints and traditional knives in general, and have been lurking this forum for quite a few weeks now. I think you guys would like the Japanese concept of Wabi-sabi, which, put extremely bluntly, is an appreciation of imperfect items and aesthetics.

I have been associating wabi-sabi particularly with carbon steel traditional knives, which I've grown particularly fond of, having just a few days ago received a couple of Schrade Old Timers. I know a lot of you say you prefer carbon steel to SS because of the patina that develops, but I'd like to press into this a bit more and suggest that is it not just the colour of the patina, but the beauty of its asymmetry. I'll just mention that I'm not at all suggesting SS cannot form patinas or is always perfect.

I'm sure the same could be said for user knives, and the enjoyment of its nicks and stains.

Just a penny for your thoughts.:)
 
I've been a perfectionist since I was a kid, so it is hard for me to appreciate things which are not perfect.


But then again, I'm a realist, and finally understand that there is no such thing as perfect :D
 
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It's a very useful concept and leads to an appreciation of individuality and contentment. Very Traditional.
 
The Navajo (and probably other native American tribes) have a similar concept: Man is an imperfect being, and to try to achieve perfection in a produced artifact is an insult to the Great Spirit. They will include an intentional mistake in an otherwise perfect blanket, for instance, to show that they realize they are imperfect.

It has more to do with production of artifacts than maintenance of tools, though.

This is a conundrum for me, personally. Not the making of perfect things, but the "keeping things nice" vs. "letting them acquire a used look". Luckily I have the wherewithal to have some of each. I've got some knives (and guns) which are nothing more than tools, treated about the same as my old hammer (it was my fathers, and is in good shape, too). I've got others that I would never dig in the dirt with, that I like having nice and shiny. Now I've just got to get over trying to convince myself it has to be one way or the other.

-- Sam
 
Well said YS.. The native Americans have a great way of looking at things.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for them. A good friend was born and raised on a reservation until he was in his early 20's.
Some of the things he would tell me seemed so simplistic, but when I thought about it, the things he told me always made great sense......

I hope my first reply didn't come across the wrong way. I really gotta quit replying to things when I get home from work and am tired. Usually the next day, I read them and it doesn't even make sense to me :confused:

I to appreciate things that have "imperfections", because usually they will have some meaning and or history to them.
I guess my wife appreciates things with imperfections too, she is still with me :D
 
It occurred to me after writing that and thinking about it for a while, that perhaps the true insult is to believe that one could produce something perfect in the first place. Being made by man it would inherently be imperfect, and to think otherwise would be the "sin".

So go ahead, strive for the absolute best you can do, knowing that it will never be "perfect", but in your mere striving you are aligning yourself with the forces of order.

Wow, this stuff is getting deep. I think I need hip waders.

-- Sam
 
338375 said:
I hope my first reply didn't come across the wrong way. I really gotta quit replying to things when I get home from work and am tired. Usually the next day, I read them and it doesn't even make sense to me :confused:

I to appreciate things that have "imperfections", because usually they will have some meaning and or history to them.
I guess my wife appreciates things with imperfections too, she is still with me :D
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Nah it's all good. Everyone has their opinions, and I can understand not wanting to put a mark on a pristine knife, especially a collector's item or something. Just a different way of looking at things; the Wiki entry for Wabi sabi describes it as an acceptance of transience in the real world; the slow but inevitable changes in physical goods.

In one sense wabi sabi is a training where the student of wabi sabi learns to find the most simple objects interesting, fascinating and beautiful. Fading autumn leaves would be an example. Wabi sabi can change our perception of our world to the extent that a chip or crack in a vase makes it more interesting and give the object greater meditative value. Similarly materials that age such a bare wood, paper and fabric become more interesting as they exhibit changes that can be observed over time.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's a fair bit of zen in this concept. Maybe a bit too much zen. Can you ever have too much zen?:cool:

Cheers for the comments everyone.
 
Yosemite Sam said:
The Navajo (and probably other native American tribes) have a similar concept: Man is an imperfect being, and to try to achieve perfection in a produced artifact is an insult to the Great Spirit. They will include an intentional mistake in an otherwise perfect blanket, for instance, to show that they realize they are imperfect.

It has more to do with production of artifacts than maintenance of tools, though.

This is a conundrum for me, personally. Not the making of perfect things, but the "keeping things nice" vs. "letting them acquire a used look". Luckily I have the wherewithal to have some of each. I've got some knives (and guns) which are nothing more than tools, treated about the same as my old hammer (it was my fathers, and is in good shape, too). I've got others that I would never dig in the dirt with, that I like having nice and shiny. Now I've just got to get over trying to convince myself it has to be one way or the other.

-- Sam
Click to expand...

Isn't it a bit of hubris to think than one needs to include an imperfection to make something imperfect? Would not accepting that one is not perfect, and no object can be perfect lead one to create objects as expertly as possible with the realization that no matter how well made, it cannot be perfect, therefore, no imperfection need be added? Adding an imperfection is like saying "This object that I created would be perfect, except for my hand making it imperfect."
 
I am Metis and have studied Native american art for many years and also made numerous pieces for collectors. The concept of making intentional mistakes in a piece is to show that only the creator makes things perfectly. I believe it to be a modern concept, probably a story made up to explain a mistake originally. ;-))

I had a few books on Wabi Sabi that discribed it more like "the appreciation of the imperfection in nature" as it related to art. There were pictures of a dried up river bed with sun cracked and curled "tiles" of clay followed by the artists tiles made to resemble the curled clay riverbed.
I can see knives in the Wabi Sabi style, rough forged, cracked rough ivory handle, rough burl scabbard. ;-)

Regards

Robin
 
I appreciate the imperfections in this knife, and in these beads.
The knife was Oupa-fied, customized by an outback Aussie, who has a nice artistic flair. He not only improved the looks, but by converting a two blade to one blade, made a nicely constructed, but thick, knife (by Queen) even better.
The beads were combed/sifted from Coast Salish middens over a few years. Painstakingly drilled with harder, flaked stone points, it is amazing to imagine how much work went into this 6 foot length of beads. Modern stringing of course.
I love looking at both of these items; much more interesting than if they were perfectly symmetrical.
CoastSalishScagel.jpg
 
hlee said:
Isn't it a bit of hubris to think than one needs to include an imperfection to make something imperfect? Would not accepting that one is not perfect, and no object can be perfect lead one to create objects as expertly as possible with the realization that no matter how well made, it cannot be perfect, therefore, no imperfection need be added? Adding an imperfection is like saying "This object that I created would be perfect, except for my hand making it imperfect."
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Ditto. ("Did he say, 'Ditto'?")

See my post #8 above. ;)

-- Sam
 
Wow this is some pretty deep stuff! I kinda get the gist of it as it pertains to traditional knives, as I have marveled at how patina evolves. Now I have a word to define it, Wabi-Sabi! Learned something new today:thumbup:
 
This truly has to be one of the deepest discussions I can remember in Traditional..

Reminds me of a time some years back. My good friend and I had been working on our race cars and enjoying some adult beverages, we decided to go outside and take a break.
As I stared up into the star filled sky, I told him, remember it is infinite.
Try to put yourself beyond the infinance. That became a very deep and enlightening moment. The fact that we had been drinking helped some :confused:
We both were lost in our own minds trying to grasp that simple statement.

Really changed the mood for the rest of the evening. Kinda felt like Einstien should have walked into our shop to help us understand this which we were pondering...

Damn, here I go posting after a 13 hour work day. I said I wasn't going to do that anymore. Hopefully this won't read as bad in the morning
 
Charlie
Those are some beautiful beads. There is no better Aboriginal art than that of the west coast tribes, from the simplicity of your beads to the wonder of a Charles Edenshaw Argilite pole or a transformation mask.

You have great taste.

Regards

Robin



waynorth said:
I appreciate the imperfections in this knife, and in these beads.
The knife was Oupa-fied, customized by an outback Aussie, who has a nice artistic flair. He not only improved the looks, but by converting a two blade to one blade, made a nicely constructed, but thick, knife (by Queen) even better.
The beads were combed/sifted from Coast Salish middens over a few years. Painstakingly drilled with harder, flaked stone points, it is amazing to imagine how much work went into this 6 foot length of beads. Modern stringing of course.
I love looking at both of these items; much more interesting than if they were perfectly symmetrical.
CoastSalishScagel.jpg
Click to expand...
 
hlee said:
Isn't it a bit of hubris to think than one needs to include an imperfection to make something imperfect? Would not accepting that one is not perfect, and no object can be perfect lead one to create objects as expertly as possible with the realization that no matter how well made, it cannot be perfect, therefore, no imperfection need be added? Adding an imperfection is like saying "This object that I created would be perfect, except for my hand making it imperfect."
Click to expand...


My brother worked for years at Ganado Trading Post in AZ and was adopted by one of the Navajo grandmother weavers there. Their skill is amazing, they're real national treasures. I'm convinced they could weave as perfectly as handcrafted work could be done. I don't think their deliberate flaw is hubris so much as a humble, spiritual outlook on their work and place in creation.
 
RobbW said:
I don't think their deliberate flaw is hubris so much as a humble, spiritual outlook on their work and place in creation.
Click to expand...

It also sounds like some acceptance of the fact that if you try to make something perfect, you'll never be finished with it. That one imperfection allows you to let go of that object and let it get on with the business of being useful.
 
Characteristics of the wabi-sabi aesthetic include asymmetry, asperity, simplicity, modesty, intimacy, and suggest a natural process.

There are aspects of wabi-sabi that I appreciate, and some that I cannot stand at all.

Love simplicity and modesty in many things.

In knives, don't care for asymmetry or rust. It is hard for me to get excited about "as forged" knives, and I don't "get" patina. DO get excited when the maker nails it, such as this piece:



There is very little wabi-sabi here, but to hold it, not perfect either. Has a subdued organic feel, with much evidence of hard work and creativity, Ken Erickson's work is about as sophisticated as many slip-joints get, but clearly nods to the working knives that everyone had at one point in history.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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