Want a *real* super steel blade help me choose between...

IMHO, there is no better "package", for the money spent, than the Spyderco Manix LW in S110V. I'm talking for the money. Take it to a 15dps on a 350-400 grit stone, it will flat out cut most knives, including many customs. For pure slicing and edge retention, S110V is hard to beat. In a production knife, Spyderco does this steel very well.

As far as the tool steels go, M4 is great, but it won't hang with S110V. 3V is monster tough, but it does not have the edge retention either. Tool steels are awesome, and among my favorite all around steels.

They won't hold with the true high vanadium steels like S90V and S110V.
 
What KennyB said.
KennyB said:
Well, just my opinion, but I would lower your expectations. No steel is going to cut lots of abrasive materials and still shave well. That's why people started making straight razors dedicated for shaving their face, and knives for cutting stuff. Likewise, no straight razor is gonna last long cutting cardboard or rope. Just the way it is, super steels don't offer any "magic" that change this, they just offer slightly better performance over other steels.

I have a nice custom in ELMAX treated to 62 HRC and it holds an edge so much longer than my similar knives in 1095, but it's not like I can cut up any reasonable amount of material and then go shave arm hair or any other hair off with it effortlessly, and it has a very accute edge angle. I think shaving is a misleading thing anyway, I've taken some pretty dulled and "smoothed" edges with literally no bite and stropped them until I could shave hair with them, but it doesn't mean they were as good at cutting any thing as they were before...

With that being said, steels that are higher in hardness and/or carbide formers like vanadium are going to hold a working edge for much longer than simpler steels like 1095, 440*, and other types that are just basically carbon and iron. It's the carbide formers and other alloying elements that really make "super steels" perform better in any one area, and you need to pay attention to which of these alloying elements is the "key" feature because some steels are more "super" in one area than the other, toughness vs wear-resistance, etc. I haven't got to try a whole lot myself, and to be honest have no interest in spending heaps of money in trying out different ones because so far if I could venture a guess with the different ones I have tried it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference in keeping that really super-refined edge. Sure some steels will keep cutting stuff for longer, but if you expect any steel to "not dull" you're going to be sorely disappointed. Then on top of that, there's the other factor of heat-treatment; it doesn't really matter if you have a terrific steel that's supposed to have excellent wear resistance, if the manufacturer/maker has ran it at a hardness level that isn't optimal to the steel. This happens a lot with some of the better steels out there... One reason why getting a custom is so often recommended, manufacturers just don't want to run blades at higher hardness levels for production knives without also running them for higher cost.

Long story short... You're on the short road to driving yourself crazy. If you want to try the actual knives more power to you, but don't expect the steel to make miracles.
Click to expand...
 
Wow, lots to reply to, but I'll keep it brief. Kenny B may be right in that my idea of what I'd ideally like to have for performance isn't obtainable. I keep hearing people claim that it is but I dunno.

As far as my blades being "bad", I kind of thought so too for a brief time, but I figured out that it was just my expectations. I absolutely positively see an edge holding difference from 8Cr13MoV to S30V, and then a bigger difference going to ZDP-189. None of them hold a shaving sharp edge for more than 10 or 20 feet of cardboard. Which brings me to something I was asked above:

What kind of cardboard do I cut and how? I'm mostly *not* cutting cardboard. Rather I'm opening cardboard boxes that are taped shut. I also cut pallet wrap, pallet straps, etc. But I mostly open boxes. Now opening boxes is kind of a very strange cutting activity. I almost always attack boxes at the taped seams and cut through the tape. Which means that a lot of the time, I'm dragging the edge through tape, while at the same time, the end grain of the cardboard is pressing tightly against the sides of the blade. I suppose that if I'm not exactly straight I might roll the edge by doing this (like twisting it slightly as I cut). I also tend to find a good number of VERY tightly held together seams, which means I have to use the point, and then some force to get the blade in between those tight pieces of cardboard. I'm guessing this is another opportunity to put undue pressure on the blade's edge. Don't get me wrong; I'm careful, but I don't baby the blade either. I'm just trying to outline what I do most of the time and the things I think might be contributing to the edge degrading.

All of this said, my ZDP blade holds up for this particular task really well. It outlasts the S30V blade by probably 2 to 3x and my 8Cr blade by 5x (maybe more). I've also reprofiled the ZDP-189 (Delica) to around 12-ish degrees per side, so it's geometry helps a lot too.

My desire to have a shaving sharp edge after some amount of work, is really just me being a knife guy and thinking it would be really cool to have that kind of sharpness. It's not necessarily useful. On the other hand, when I'm cutting open a box that's sealed with paper backed tape (industrial stuff), it's very nice to have it push cut through the tape without any draw at all. Once my blade starts to require a draw, or a saw through paper tape, I want it sharper.

Which brings me finally to some testing today (very informal). I found that after maybe 10 boxes, my ZDP-189 delica would catch hair, but not shave. It would slice phonebook paper some, but it hung and had to be "worked" to get through the paper. In short, not really a phonebook paper slicing edge.

I've since taken the blade back to the DMTs to do a bit more work on it and will do a little more testing in the next week to see how it holds up.

Brian.
 
I think for the average person---maybe none of us here---the big lacking factor can be professional sharpening....someone who really knows how to bring a steel to its max sharp. I see a couple people here I know are hip to what I mean. I don't believe many people ever really see SHARP. The average kitchen knife for example.

I think a pro's hand would make some of these mentioned "disappointment" steels a lot more impressive to some. I can sharpen, but never would I think I could bring a blade to the potential some of these guys can.

I observe people so obsessed with steel that I wonder if it doesn't take some of the pleasure from the whole hobby for them....but then realize that probably IS the pleasure of the hobby for them. So power to em; I'll listen and learn. I just don't want to become so immersed in theory of it that I leave the real world of reason on it. :)

IMO any steel, say AUS8, Sandvik, even 420's and up, will impress much more with pro sharpening, maybe even re-beveling and angling based on the pro's advice, than the average "sharp" a person has to work with either from 'factory sharpening" when new or their own attempt at sharpening which they declared a success. For those I'd say your blade might not be at its potential...?
 
I wanted to reply about some specific knives too. That K2 in 10V seems like a beast. I've read a lot of Ankerson's tests (Jim) and that one is a pretty outstanding performer. Let me add to the chorus of us knife nuts that appreciate your work Jim. Thank you!

That said, that knife is quite a bit bigger than I normally carry. I'd have to handle it and put it in my pocket to see if it would work for me. It's tempting given it's crazy edge holding.

As far as the Benchmade is M4 or M390 go, I wonder if they are much better than ZDP? My "problem" seems to be that I'm not a big fan of how a steel like S30V degrades to "working" level. That is, the "working level" is too dull for my tastes. What steels hold a sharper working edge? Or are there essentially no steels that do this?

I should mention that I totally realize that edge geometry is a bigger factor in cutting than most people realize. Perhaps even bigger than the steel itself. I also realize that the heat treat is ENORMOUSLY important. I'm trying to only consider knives from maker with good reputations for heat treating like Spyderco. It's also why I asked for specific knife recommendations and not just steel recommendations. Since that would take the heat treat and geometry into consideration at the same time.

Thanks again everyone. This is fun stuff. :)

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
I wanted to reply about some specific knives too. That K2 in 10V seems like a beast. I've read a lot of Ankerson's tests (Jim) and that one is a pretty outstanding performer. Let me add to the chorus of us knife nuts that appreciate your work Jim. Thank you!

That said, that knife is quite a bit bigger than I normally carry. I'd have to handle it and put it in my pocket to see if it would work for me. It's tempting given it's crazy edge holding.

As far as the Benchmade is M4 or M390 go, I wonder if they are much better than ZDP? My "problem" seems to be that I'm not a big fan of how a steel like S30V degrades to "working" level. That is, the "working level" is too dull for my tastes. What steels hold a sharper working edge? Or are there essentially no steels that do this?

I should mention that I totally realize that edge geometry is a bigger factor in cutting than most people realize. Perhaps even bigger than the steel itself. I also realize that the heat treat is ENORMOUSLY important. I'm trying to only consider knives from maker with good reputations for heat treating like Spyderco. It's also why I asked for specific knife recommendations and not just steel recommendations. Since that would take the heat treat and geometry into consideration at the same time.

Thanks again everyone. This is fun stuff. :)

Brian.
Click to expand...


The K2 is basically the same size overall length (Closed) as a Spyderco Military and it feels like a Military in the pocket, carries smaller than it looks. :)

Another option would be the S110V LW Manix 2 in S110V as some others have posted, also the Benchmade 940-1 in S90V, both are excellent performers.

Something in the 320 to 600 grit range should be good for edge finish with IMO 400 grit seems to work the best in my testing overall.

Both CPM S110V and CPM 10V will hold a nice sharp working edge for a very long time from my own testing and real use and might need a quick touch up once in awhile on a ceramic rod, a few passes and your done. You could go for a very long time like that without having to take it to a stone and time between touch ups will likely surprise you.
 
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S110v has better edge retention than s90v. Also, the s110v manix is way cheaper than any production knife in s90v that i know of. Do not go for m390 or CPM m4 like mentioned before. They will disappoint you in edge retention if you are not satisfied with your ZDP-189. As Ankerson's test shows, production Spyderco ZDP outcuts both Benchmade and Spyderco's production m390.
 
Tracy Y said:
Jan 1st, 2015

I want to let everyone know about my experience with Blackstar Knives and Britt in the hopes that no one else has to go through what I went through.
I ordered a First Blood knife in June of 2012 and was told by Britt Gudowski that I would recieve my knife in 6-8 weeks. So when I did not recieve my knife after nearly 3 months I contacted Britt and was told that there where some delays and I would recieve my knife within 30 days....6 weeks later I still did not have my knife so I text and called britt several times with within the next month without a single reply. I then filed a dispute on paypal in the hopes to at least recover my final deposit of $263.00 Shortly after I filed the dispute Britt responded to the dispute VIA Paypal and I quoate "12/12/2014 12:55 PST - Seller: I was out of the country(my phone doesnt work out of the US) and will be shipping his knife out to him next week.Britt" But I did not get the knife the next week. So I talked to britt on the phone on friday the 19th of December and he told me that he just got back from over seas and he would ship the knife either Sat. Or Mon. and then send me a tracking number and the knife would be on my door step by Wed Dec 24th. I never recieved a tracking number and Britt has once again went silent on me despite the several attempts I have made to get ahold of him. It is now Jan 1st 2015. I have not heard from Britt and I do not have the Knife I have paid in full. I may be able to get the final payment back via Paypal claim, but I will have to go to small claims court to get the first and largest payment back because Paypal only gives a person something like 6 weeks to file a claim and I paid Britt the down payment last June 2014. I would never wish this experience on anyone and honestly I do not know how Britt Gudowski and Blackstar Knives stay in business when they do not deliever the paid for product. If this write up saves anyone from going through what I did I will consider it well worth it.

Thanks, Tracy Yates
Click to expand...

Someone drank way too much last night, and forgot to read anything about how this forum works. Will get this removed, there was actually an interesting discussion going on in this thread......
 
Vegas Blade said:
IMHO, there is no better "package", for the money spent, than the Spyderco Manix LW in S110V. I'm talking for the money. Take it to a 15dps on a 350-400 grit stone, it will flat out cut most knives, including many customs. For pure slicing and edge retention, S110V is hard to beat. In a production knife, Spyderco does this steel very well.

As far as the tool steels go, M4 is great, but it won't hang with S110V. 3V is monster tough, but it does not have the edge retention either. Tool steels are awesome, and among my favorite all around steels.

They won't hold with the true high vanadium steels like S90V and S110V.
Click to expand...

In terms of 3V, in my experience with the steel, it holds a much better edge than M4, but my experience with 3V is customs only, M4 production. There are always variable between custom and production knives, In my experience anyway.

Another point I want to make is that while S110 and S90 will hold a shaving sharp edge longer that 3V they are more prone to micro chipping, and are more work to get the edge back. If you have the right tools and experience this is not an issue, but if you don't, this could be a huge issue.

To put a shaving sharp edge back on 3V is easy. It can be done with a strop. The steel, in my experience will roll long before it chips, and I like that.

As far as edge retention goes, what do you need?
3V and M4 will hold an edge longer than you need....
 
bgentry said:
I should mention that I totally realize that edge geometry is a bigger factor in cutting than most people realize. Perhaps even bigger than the steel itself.

Thanks again everyone. This is fun stuff. :)

Brian.
Click to expand...

Edge geometry, specifically edge angle, is a significantly larger factor than the steel itself. Buck showed this with CATRA testing before starting their Edge 2000 sharpening procedure, with 420HC significantly out cutting BG-42 just by changing the angle to the new range from the older, larger angles pre-edge 2K.

Now, as a further consideration, picture an isosceles triangle with a base of say 10 microns wide (dull by most standards) and an apex angle of 40 degrees (20 degrees per side). Now picture another with the same base width and an apex angle of 20 degrees (10 degrees per side). Notice the smaller angle apex triangle has about twice the area that needs to be worn away to reach the same base width (dullness).
 
Have a look at fallkniven knives. A few knives in 3G which holds an edge like nothing I've seen. Also. check out knives in their laminated cobalt steel. Again a awesome steel that holds an edge a long time. Great knives excellent quality and looks too.
 
JR88FAN said:
In terms of 3V, in my experience with the steel, it holds a much better edge than M4, but my experience with 3V is customs only, M4 production. There are always variable between custom and production knives, In my experience anyway.

Another point I want to make is that while S110 and S90 will hold a shaving sharp edge longer that 3V they are more prone to micro chipping, and are more work to get the edge back. If you have the right tools and experience this is not an issue, but if you don't, this could be a huge issue.

To put a shaving sharp edge back on 3V is easy. It can be done with a strop. The steel, in my experience will roll long before it chips, and I like that.

As far as edge retention goes, what do you need?
3V and M4 will hold an edge longer than you need....
Click to expand...

I agree with you whole heartedly. I was just saying for pure slicing and edge retention I like S110V. For an all around steel, there are many others I like.

I have a feeling we would like many of the same steels.
 
Vegas Blade said:
I agree with you whole heartedly. I was just saying for pure slicing and edge retention I like S110V. For an all around steel, there are many others I like.

I have a feeling we would like many of the same steels.
Click to expand...

Never disagreed with you either my friend, just trying to throw all the variables out there....

PD1 is a steel I will need to try sooner than later.
 
bgentry said:
I wanted to reply about some specific knives too. That K2 in 10V seems like a beast. I've read a lot of Ankerson's tests (Jim) and that one is a pretty outstanding performer. Let me add to the chorus of us knife nuts that appreciate your work Jim. Thank you!

That said, that knife is quite a bit bigger than I normally carry. I'd have to handle it and put it in my pocket to see if it would work for me. It's tempting given it's crazy edge holding.

As far as the Benchmade is M4 or M390 go, I wonder if they are much better than ZDP? My "problem" seems to be that I'm not a big fan of how a steel like S30V degrades to "working" level. That is, the "working level" is too dull for my tastes. What steels hold a sharper working edge? Or are there essentially no steels that do this?

I should mention that I totally realize that edge geometry is a bigger factor in cutting than most people realize. Perhaps even bigger than the steel itself. I also realize that the heat treat is ENORMOUSLY important. I'm trying to only consider knives from maker with good reputations for heat treating like Spyderco. It's also why I asked for specific knife recommendations and not just steel recommendations. Since that would take the heat treat and geometry into consideration at the same time.

Thanks again everyone. This is fun stuff. :)

Brian.
Click to expand...

I think what you're talking about is wanting finer grained steel. I'm going out on a limb here, but basically my understanding is that steels with high-contents of carbide formers like vanadium also increase the grain size as a result. So basically, you have these vanadium carbides that are kind of in a "matrix" structure inside of the normal steel and when it dulls, the vanadium carbides dull slower than the surrounding steel so it becomes rougher. This theory I've heard proposed anyway, is purportedly the reason why S30V holds a "working edge" for so long, the steel wears but the carbides wear much slower and help maintain the overall shape of the blade. Think of it like you built wall of mud, and a wall of mud embedded with small rocks and pebbles. The second will be much more impervious to erosion than the first, but the surface will become very coarse and rocky over time while the mud-only wall will remain smooth.

But yeah that terrible analogy aside, I'm not aware of any magical way to know based on composition or anything which steels will have a finer grain structure than the other. In fact, some steels like D2 wind up more finely grained just by merit of better manufacturing processes like Crucible's CPM-D2. In the meantime, there are stainless steels like M390 and ELMAX which also have high vanadium content, but have a reputation of holding a much finer edge than S30V.
 
All I know is I love my CPM-20CV @ 62. Gets sharp, stays sharp. Wish I could tell you where to get a knife in it......
 
KennyB said:
I think what you're talking about is wanting finer grained steel. I'm going out on a limb here, but basically my understanding is that steels with high-contents of carbide formers like vanadium also increase the grain size as a result. So basically, you have these vanadium carbides that are kind of in a "matrix" structure inside of the normal steel and when it dulls, the vanadium carbides dull slower than the surrounding steel so it becomes rougher. This theory I've heard proposed anyway, is purportedly the reason why S30V holds a "working edge" for so long, the steel wears but the carbides wear much slower and help maintain the overall shape of the blade. Think of it like you built wall of mud, and a wall of mud embedded with small rocks and pebbles. The second will be much more impervious to erosion than the first, but the surface will become very coarse and rocky over time while the mud-only wall will remain smooth.

But yeah that terrible analogy aside, I'm not aware of any magical way to know based on composition or anything which steels will have a finer grain structure than the other. In fact, some steels like D2 wind up more finely grained just by merit of better manufacturing processes like Crucible's CPM-D2. In the meantime, there are stainless steels like M390 and ELMAX which also have high vanadium content, but have a reputation of holding a much finer edge than S30V.
Click to expand...

Vanadium actually helps shrink the grain size so sometimes it's used in small amounts for grain refinement. :)

But yes any of the powder steels would work fine as they are all fine grained.
 
Brian.Evans said:
All I know is I love my CPM-20CV @ 62. Gets sharp, stays sharp. Wish I could tell you where to get a knife in it......
Click to expand...
I know for a fact you can get one from Evans Knife and Tool. I got my Dart in CPM-20CV a few months ago and it's now my "go to" edc blade. Carry it in a kydex neck sheath and never go anywhere without it. I've tried 15 or 20 neckers in various steels over the past few years. The 20CV beats them all hands down.
 
Brian.Evans said:
All I know is I love my CPM-20CV @ 62. Gets sharp, stays sharp. Wish I could tell you where to get a knife in it......
Click to expand...

I have never tried 20CV.
I look at how much Chromium that steel has and I think 'brittle'....
Looks like something that would be super stainless and maybe good for light cutting and food prep, but also would be really prone to chipping....

Please correct me if I am wrong....
 
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