want expensive knife but can't touch it first - what do you do?

One thing People seems to be forgetting here is that we live in the Amazon dot com age. We just have to get used to returning things in the mail these days, regardless of the reasons for the return.
 
Hey OP the only thing I’ll say about Hinderer is the weight of the knife took me by surprise. Sure I did my research and knew it was 5+oz. (even though I told myself a edc will never be over that margin) but I decided to take a leap and I love the knife. With that being said. You best believe I’ve got my buddy who does CNC work for firearms, is going to “skeletonize” these Ti slabs for me just to make it’s a little more pocket friendly. Other than that..great ergos and a fantastic knife. Plus as others have stated, you could sell something like a Hinderer for little to no loss.
 
The Mastiff said:
"Please correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand if I buy a knife new then take it out of the box and put it my display case and decide to sell it I can no longer call it new, it would be LNIB or used . If in fact that is what you are saying then I don't agree. If I happen to get one that is returned and is in pristine condition I have no problem buying it as new."

I don't think yours or my opinion changes laws but yes, that is correct. Another instance that may not seem correct but is how it is in the auto sales industry. A car can be test driven for a hundred fifty miles and be sold as new. The purchaser drives off the lot and it is now a used car. Say he wrecks it 50 foot down the road. Less even. Say pulling out of the lot. Is it new or used? Used according to the law once the transaction is complete. ( some state laws may differ naturally, I don't know). This actually happened to a relative. It sucked but that's how it is.

I wouldn't buy a knife from someone who described his knife as new unless they are the maker. Why? Because that person is uninformed or lying. Neither of which makes for good business. If he described it as "LNIB - perfect" I would have no problem, provided it was perfect. No knife is new after it has been sold no matter our opinion on the matter.

Joe
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Please don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you but I am also a realist and I am sure that pristine returns are sold as new and if I get one when I buy it I am OK with that.
I have an example for you that really irritates me. When you go to the store to buy Shrimp or Squid, unless it's from the U.S. Gulf they have been frozen and thawed. Unfortunately that is the law and many stores do it.
More reputable stores will sell it as "Previously Frozen" but the idea that they are allowed to sell it as fresh is pretty aggravating. It seems that the term "New" is pretty subjective.
 
The Mastiff said:
"Please correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand if I buy a knife new then take it out of the box and put it my display case and decide to sell it I can no longer call it new, it would be LNIB or used . If in fact that is what you are saying then I don't agree. If I happen to get one that is returned and is in pristine condition I have no problem buying it as new."

I don't think yours or my opinion changes laws but yes, that is correct. Another instance that may not seem correct but is how it is in the auto sales industry. A car can be test driven for a hundred fifty miles and be sold as new. The purchaser drives off the lot and it is now a used car. Say he wrecks it 50 foot down the road. Less even. Say pulling out of the lot. Is it new or used? Used according to the law once the transaction is complete. ( some state laws may differ naturally, I don't know). This actually happened to a relative. It sucked but that's how it is.

I wouldn't buy a knife from someone who described his knife as new unless they are the maker. Why? Because that person is uninformed or lying. Neither of which makes for good business. If he described it as "LNIB - perfect" I would have no problem, provided it was perfect. No knife is new after it has been sold no matter our opinion on the matter.

Joe
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You do realize there are circumstances where someone can buy a car and drive it off the lot, end up returning it, and it can be sold as new a second time? For example, if financing falls through after the fact.
 
I'm definitely at risk of going off topic here, but all the claims that selling returns as new is illegal got me curious about the actual law. Surprisingly, getting a good answer wasn't immediately straightforward - as in, it took more than one Google search to narrow down the right terms :).

This applies to the US as a whole - other countries will obviously have different laws, and state laws may apply additional rules. Under US federal law, whether an item is considered "new" or "used" is governed by the Federal Trade Commission's rules for product labeling. As it turns out, an item that was purchased and returned without actually being used (shows no signs of use) can be resold as new, as per a 2006 guidance letter to Sony from the FTC:

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/do...onics-products/061220staffopintosonyelect.pdf

So, no, selling an unused returned item as new is not illegal under US federal law.

Getting back on topic, then, if you can't find a knife locally, buying online and returning if you don't like it (after handling it only, not using or carrying) shouldn't be expensive to the dealer. Their only direct expense in the transaction is shipping, and if you pay outbound shipping yourself you can offset that. Any labor associated with the sale gets rolled into fixed costs, which won't affect the dealer's profits unless you (and everyone else) starts abusing returns - don't do that, obviously :).
 
That's the risk you take with high end knives.

I live in Holland, here there's probably not a single store within 200km that stocks anything other than SAK and opinel, so all knives i buy a a guess.

Sadly resale is also very hard..

Oh well such is life.
 
Mrgauth said:
Some great advice. Thx. I am on the fence about the half track. Size is my concern. Looks really small. I may just have to bite the bullet and if too small return. If that knife was 3.25 inch, done deal. The other problem is there never seems to the right combination. Every time I find the one that has a scale color I like and the ano I like it has a working finish that I don’t like. And USA has very few non working finish blades to choose from. Ugh, this crap is hard. : )
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It is very small, if you have any doubts don't buy. It's quite a bit different than the XM series (even the 3" versions) both in operation, and feel. It's a tank but not for everyone.
 
Tyyreaun stated :

"So, no, selling an unused returned item as new is not illegal under US federal law."

But forgot to add that this was a case where Sony could prove through the use of tamper resistant devices on plugs and proof from internal devices that the product had never even been turned on. Only then could they be resold as new. It has no bearing on a knife or a case where proof can not be made that a product has been unused.

In other words where some products are being returned unsold ( my translation). This also happens in other industries but has nothing to do with a sale to a private buyer who then returns the product to the seller.

I'd also recommend never assuming that no one will take legal and civil actions in such a case. Perhaps for a flea market knife sale but when you talk about Hinderer buyers you are talking about a whole different animal. All the seller has to do is tell the truth. If they are unable to do that then they deserve whatever happens to them.

Even here on the forums we can't lie about that in private sales.

Joe
 
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I have just jumped on what I liked. I got CRKs, a midtech, and a custom without testing them in hand.
I did extensive research on the knives online, made up my mind, and had to be ready to accept any loss over international shipping, with which I have to deal most of the times.

True that I ended up with knives I am not in love. Still, they are all great knives for the prices, and I like them all and use them all.
They all have some educational values to me, too, with which I now know what I really value.
 
Because someone has a differing opinion about the definition of the word "new" does not make them a liar. Nor does it mean that a law was broken.
I bought a ZT 0804, opened the box, flipped it a few times and decided it wasn't going to work for me. I wiped it off, put it back in the package and sold it as new & unused. Because that is what it was. I in no way feel that I lied to the buyer, nor do I think that he felt he was buying anything less than a new knife. Granted, it was a private sale. So in such a case it is obvious that I, as the previous owner would at least have handled the knife before selling it.
Now if I sent it back to the purveyor I purchased it from I have no doubt that, A.) I would've received no hassle from them. and B.)they would've inspected it and resold it as new. Because, again, that is what it was.
I also submit that the purchaser would be pleased because they received a new knife.
 
basmca said:
That's the risk you take with high end knives.

I live in Holland, here there's probably not a single store within 200km that stocks anything other than SAK and opinel, so all knives i buy a a guess.

Sadly resale is also very hard..

Oh well such is life.
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Fellow Dutchie here. The Old Man (knifeshop) in Amsterdam has decent stock. And KnivesandTools (the webshop) also has a physical location where you can make an appointment and handle a lot of stuff.

Plus there's regular meetups by a lot of collectors and hobbyists.
Send me a message if you want more information.
 
"Because someone has a differing opinion about the definition of the word "new" does not make them a liar. Nor does it mean that a law was broken."

Correct, the opinion isn't what makes a person a liar. Lying makes them a liar. Appeals and supreme courts get to have opinions about laws. Us regular snooks don't in the way you mean. :) Don't think that you having a different opinion means laws don't apply to you. Don't think that getting away with something means what you did was OK. Also, don't assume that because the guy you had a successful transaction with didn't care the next guy won't. Those of us that have been here a long time have seen some folks go on their own little wars against members, knife makers and the forum itself for what I think was no good reason. One guy I recall kept popping up on a companies website for years here because a knife he bought wasn't up to his standards. I saw 5 to 7 years of trolling behavior because the knife couldn't be made to work to his idea of what a knife should be. Everybody is different and trying to predict what people will do is a crapshoot. Best to be always honest and always let the buyer decide what is important to them. Keep records ( and emails) too.
 
The Mastiff said:
"Because someone has a differing opinion about the definition of the word "new" does not make them a liar. Nor does it mean that a law was broken."

Correct, the opinion isn't what makes a person a liar. Lying makes them a liar. Appeals and supreme courts get to have opinions about laws. Us regular snooks don't in the way you mean. :) Don't think that you having a different opinion means laws don't apply to you. Don't think that getting away with something means what you did was OK. Also, don't assume that because the guy you had a successful transaction with didn't care the next guy won't. Those of us that have been here a long time have seen some folks go on their own little wars against members, knife makers and the forum itself for what I think was no good reason. One guy I recall kept popping up on a companies website for years here because a knife he bought wasn't up to his standards. I saw 5 to 7 years of trolling behavior because the knife couldn't be made to work to his idea of what a knife should be. Everybody is different and trying to predict what people will do is a crapshoot. Best to be always honest and always let the buyer decide what is important to them. Keep records ( and emails) too.
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The courts don't necessarily rule in favor of the what's right. I had a case involving about a million dollars and the court ruled in favor of the other party when I (we) had written "proof" of the intent of the other party. It was an inheritance deal. I have another situation where I am contemplating civil action..... don't want to do it, but I was a terribly wronged in this case. Lawyers just haven't made a decision yet on that deal. If this makes it sound like I am court happy, they are the only two cases in my entire life where I felt legal action was appropriate.
 
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Ya know Joe, this same subject came up about a year ago.
Someone had returned about 6 or 7 knives after kicking their tires and got pissed off because the dealer, after the fourth one, charged a re stocking fee.
I was the ONLY one who took the stance you're taking.
Like you said, if I purchase a new knife I want to be the first person to open the box.....period.
Many say it's still new......would anyone here pay full retail for that knife from the Exchange?? Even if the seller says he opened the box, then put it back??
No way.
Joe

The Mastiff said:
If a knife company sells you a knife and you return it because you don't like it they still have a used knife on their hands. They better not sell it to me afterward as anything but used. If they do they have lied to me and I'll treat it as if they intentionally damaged me financially with a deliberately false transaction. This includes legal action when possible. BTW, I sold knives for many years as a business. I would never have allowed that and accepted returns only for defects. I'd make sure at the very least the knife dealer you want to do business with knows what you intend before they agree to the sale.

Joe
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just going to add my experience.. bought a $500+ custom without "touching" it and it's defective... :( just received it this weekend and pretty bummed because it's a knife i've been looking at for months before finally getting the opportunity to buy it. hopefully i can get my refund in time to take the cash to NYKCS and buy something i can "touch"
 
josh yu said:
just going to add my experience.. bought a $500+ custom without "touching" it and it's defective... :( just received it this weekend and pretty bummed because it's a knife i've been looking at for months before finally getting the opportunity to buy it. hopefully i can get my refund in time to take the cash to NYKCS and buy something i can "touch"
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palonej said:
Ya know Joe, this same subject came up about a year ago.
Someone had returned about 6 or 7 knives after kicking their tires and got pissed off because the dealer, after the fourth one, charged a re stocking fee.
I was the ONLY one who took the stance you're taking.
Like you said, if I purchase a new knife I want to be the first person to open the box.....period.
Many say it's still new......would anyone here pay full retail for that knife from the Exchange?? Even if the seller says he opened the box, then put it back??
No way.
Joe
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I am a firm believer of charging a restocking fee. As far as someone buying 6-7 knives and then returning most of them if not all is a blatant ass. Everything in moderation. In reference to the case of buying a knife on the forum the seller should not get the same price as a legitimate vendor for the sole reason that the private seller does not offer any of the services that a retailer would offer such as guarantee of authenticity. I had recently bought a ZT 0452 CF from someone on this forum. He told me that he had just bought the knife recently and that he didn't like it. He gave me a good price. When I got the knife I opened it to find that the bearings were shot. I emailed him about the problem and he said that he knew about it and if I wanted too I could send it back. I still wonder what was in the mind of the seller to call it LNIB.
I ended up sending it to Kai. and they fixed it and sent it back free of charge. The point I am trying to make is that if he had charged me full retail I would have sent it back to him. That is why private sellers do not get the same price as the retailers.
 
Hmmmm... private seller vs retailer.... All I can say is it depends on the knife in terms of what price is attached to it. But in general, if I can buy a knife from a retailer for X and the private seller (whom I don't know) is asking the same price.... you know the answer to that decision even if I have to pay sales tax.

I think a re-stocking fee is appropriate. It keeps people from buying 5 or 6 knives at once with the intent of choosing one and returning the rest. It is not how I operate.

The bearing thing on the ZT 0452CF above would really piss me off.... like new? Right.

I had a guy hit me up in a parking lot (grocery store) wanting to sell me a Case slip joint knife. I said no. He drops his price again and again.... finally I told him NO. I don't want it at any price.
 
"
Ya know Joe, this same subject came up about a year ago.
Someone had returned about 6 or 7 knives after kicking their tires and got pissed off because the dealer, after the fourth one, charged a re stocking fee.
I was the ONLY one who took the stance you're taking.
Like you said, if I purchase a new knife I want to be the first person to open the box.....period.
Many say it's still new......would anyone here pay full retail for that knife from the Exchange?? Even if the seller says he opened the box, then put it back??
No way."

Joe, you have a knack for explaining things better than I can. Thanks!

I don't have a problem buying knives from people here. I just expect honesty in dealings and know others expect it from me. In my years here I only had a problem with one guys description on a knife I bought. It was sold as LNIB and wasn't even close. The guy had no problem with my returning the knife and we both kept it polite. No reason not to be. On a sale I had one guy question why a knife shipment was taking so long after I told him if I accepted a personal check as a favor to him ( instead of a money order) I would hold the shipment until it cleared. He agreed but then posted a complaint about how long it took 5-6 days later. I just posted the e-mail series where he had agreed to wait. Some people just over think things for whatever reason like this guy did. He thought because 6 days had gone by he had been ripped off and wanted to vent. More experienced and confident buyers likely wouldn't have .

The actual number of people here doing bad things is really very low and the times it has happened the staff here have been on it quickly. It's really a very good place to conduct business.

Joe L.
 
In case anyone cares, I, the OP, still have not bought said Hinderer. I do have a store 100 miles away that carries a couple of Hinderers but the guy who runs that store is such a pompous ass I hate to go there. I may just have to bite the bullet and take a day and see what I think and deal with that d*ck.

I do have one question about the xm-18. When you flip them does your finger hit the jimping and irritate much. Looks like a bad place to put aggressive jimping.
 
Mrgauth said:
In case anyone cares, I, the OP, still have not bought said Hinderer. I do have a store 100 miles away that carries a couple of Hinderers but the guy who runs that store is such a pompous ass I hate to go there. I may just have to bite the bullet and take a day and see what I think and deal with that d*ck.

I do have one question about the xm-18. When you flip them does your finger hit the jimping and irritate much. Looks like a bad place to put aggressive jimping.
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I’m a new Xm18 user. I watched many many reviews on YouTube about the knife before the purchase naturally. Everyone I watched complained about what your asking (unless you’re sitting on the couch flipping the XM over and over and over and over and over and over, the jimping by the flipper is no problem.) and they also said the flipper (while holding the knife) would dig into their index finger which also is just not true for me. The only “hot spots” on the knife for me is MAYBE the pocket clip, and that’s if I REALLY focus on noticing it’s there. It’s easily the best knife I own ergonomically speaking. Very close to the PM2

Hopefully this helps
 
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