Warning! Lots of bad words, thoughts and images.

Great thread. Just recently became interested in Strider knives. It's a money thing, ok? Anyway, saving for an AR.

I'm no knife fighter...and can't really train for a variety of reasons.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Use my brain. I was in a Chinese restaurant last year. I'd just gotten my food when a man came in and started screaming and cussing at the owner. The owner started cussing back at the guy. After pounding on the counter...the man left the restaurant and said he would be back. I got up and left my mostly uneaten meal...and walked out the door. I had two knives on me...no gun. This was one of the easiest threat assessments in my life. So...I try to avoid as much danger as possible.

2. Carry a gun. I live in Texas and have a CHL. I carry a gun as often as possible. Usually my S&W 642 in the right front pocket. I can strike a nonchalant pose (hand in pocket) and draw/fire relatively quickly (I practice a great deal with this). I would, of course, fire center of mass. Whenever I carry, I always have a knife available for my left hand for weapon retention purposes.

3. When I can't carry a gun...I carry at least two knives. I want one readily available for each hand. Lately I've been carrying a Civilian for the left hand. (Since I'm right-handed, my left hand is not of that much use...sad to say. A Civilian allows me to slash like a mad-man...even though I don't have much talent as a lefty.) I carry the biggest, scariest looking knife I can. There's always the chance that the sight of the weapon alone may solve some problems (the Civilian excels at being scarry). Right pocket carry varies according to my mood. My basic plan is to hit any target of opportunity. I've always planned on stabbing (COM if possible)...right after my bowel movement. After stabbing...I've tried to rehearse twisting the knife and dragging it down/sideways as I pull it out. Then repeat. If I'm too close...I might reach around behind and go for a kidney...again twisting.

I'm ever so hopeful that I can avoid ever having to defend my life with a gun or knife. I've never been in a knife fight...but I fenced for years. Rarely got through a match without being hit. I may have won...or hit first...but I still got hit. Using a knife would be my last resort...'cause I know I'd get cut. But then...if I used it...I'd be facing getting cut anyway. If I'm gonna get hurt (or a family member is), then by God...I'm going to do some hurting myself.

Mostly, I try to know my own level of skill...and my limits. You never know what someone else is capable of...but you do know your own limits...at least you should. Hopefully, I know mine.

I always liked this quote from The Professional (a great movie)

Leon (Jean Reno)
The rifle is the first weapon you learn how to use, because it lets you keep your distance from the client. The closer you get towards being a pro, the closer you can get to the client. The knife, for example, is the last thing you learn.
Click to expand...
 
Melvin-Purvis,
Nice seeing you at the show.
No I haven't spoken to either of those individuals.
I was speaking from experience as opposed to gathered information. It always works better for me.
1. I am familiar with Kevin's theories on fighting. Obviously we disagree. I love his blades however.
2. GREG WALKER! I didn't know was around these parts. Mr Walker has done more for the knife industry, not to mention Veterans of bad places, than most people know. Thanks Mr Walker. Anything you need, please feel free to call.



Thanks again for the discussion guys

Mick
 
Mick,

Greg posts here under the name Sierra912. I have seen him most of the time in Practical Tactical. He has announced that he will be running a forum here in the training section, partnered with Andy Prisco. I have been bugging him to write Battle Blades II, and many have bugged him to get back into printing Fighting Knives magazine, and Full Contact magazine. At least when the forum starts we can have an INTERACTIVE discussion and get fast feedback! Check it out, it should be up soon.

By the way, thatks for starting these "training" threads. It is awesoem to see knifemakers going beyond production and talking about the "how to's" of life.
 
Hi Mick! Interesting topic, especially since someone on the HI forum just got the Katar he ordered after an interminable wait. It would seem the Katar may be the ultimate knife design for the kind of focused on unrelenting drive or break thru defensed fighting you describe.
( Come to that, a 17" bladed bayonet on the front of an 8 or 9 pound rifle doesn't sound too useless either. It would terrify me for sure.

Thought you might be interested that the older more pure "weapons" khukuris tend to be more sharply angled, facilitating their use in a hammer grip to drive the khuk's point deeply into the opponent rather than only slash ( much like the spontoon ).

Regarding slashing with a khuk, their 3/8ths to sometimes 5/8ths + thick spines make them somewhere in between shortsword and battleaxe, which when wielded properly results in dismemberment or near dismemberment. Awesome, but not something you can comfortably carry inside your belt.

I don't expect to ever be in a knife fight, but you've reinforced the true realities of the kinds of pistol fights I'm likely to have to come from behind to win.

Uggh - and thanks again.
 
I'm also no expert but you could also use the spine of a khukuri to crush a skull or break an arm or bone. Khukuris are also very wide and and could be used on a less lethal note by knocking down a threat by striking with the flat.
 
...only I'm having some problems here, so please bear with me...

(To compound my confusion, my stated disclaimer is; "I know not of what I speak", so consider the source...me.)

Being that to some degree the Commonwealth countries 'mimic' the U.S. model of 'violence', and being that these countries have some pretty serious restrictions on legal carry of firearms, I would expect the number of 'other' means of assault, the tools if you will, to be higher...as shown in this fellow's 'study'

People are going to assault and/or defend themselves with whatever 'tools' they have at hand...at any given time.

The author compounded my confusion by giving both U.S. and foreign stats to solidify his position.

Further in the thread, it was asked if this increase in edged weapon's violence could be attributed to 'asian gang' membership...

Growing up in a predominately Philippino community, which has an extraordinarily rich edged weapons history, I would say that any 'asian' related crime problem is more likely directly attributable to a few select individuals, as a opposed to a cultural identity.

Also, whereas the gist of this thread was 'attack and/or defend to the death' with a knife, and how to do so; which in and of itself is valuable information, I don't feel that it's representative of the majority of hostile knife encounters.

In summary, I think the author of the original posting in the link you referenced was simply 'drumming up' business for his self-defense course.

That's my read anyway...

Mel
 
I found his thoughts on how to defend against a knife attack interesting. As to the statistics he mentioned, I actually paid no attention to those. As you say, he was certainly drumming up business, but I found it interesting none the less. :)
 
Wow, you guys have some varied opinions, I am soaking it all in. I think knife work is a blast to practice, beating the hell out of a dummy is fun at the gym. I even like to go one-on-one with a buddy and see who can "F" who up first with practice blades. I've been to my share of knife classes, Kni-Com, SIGARMS. I'll tell ya, it boils down to, CAN YOU GET THE THING OUT, (THE KNIFE) AND GET IT INTO PLAY BEFORE THE OTHER GUY! How fast is your draw? Once you remember where you hid the thing, can you get it out? Second in importance to me is, NOT TO OVERCOMMIT! I figure if I follow those two simple rules I should be able to either live thru the encounter OR distract the guy long enough to run my ass off. BTW...............13 years as a street medic have shown me that it's the STAB wounds that "F" the person up. If you can get a slash into a major vessel (brachial, femoral,carotid) , great. You should see the damage that can be inflicted on saturday nite at the Latino bars. I'm talkin' a chick stabbing a couple dudes. The chicks move faster than the guys and the chicks know enough to pump the knife in and out as fast as possible. Happened more times than I care to remember. As far as the Tueller Drill, I believe it.........you can cross the distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. The poor cop or civilian has to REACT. He first has to have his or her head out of their fourth point of contact, THEN they have to NOT "bobble" at the holster which is quite common under stress. Remember, most cops are working with some type of serious retention rig. I would also like to add, although unrelated, Rob S. your knives are pretty F'in kicking and I am saving up for one. GOOD LUCK Ian McDevitt, Tactical Paramedic
 
forgot........Mick, I have STRIDER AR #40 and it's my baby. It protects my ass at night.........
 
My AR is just my favorite knife. PERIOD. I usually keep the thing in my R front pocket. I'm left handed. I keep the thing in my right front pocket after SIGARMS and de Bethencort's class. My folding pocket knife is for the purpose of retaining my short gun or long gun if someone makes a grab. The way I feel about that AR is that: If my house was burning, I'd grab that AR on the way out! (my wife is a professional firefighter and can fend for herself). When I go to work tonite, 3/6 at 1900, I will carry either a 4" fixed blade and the AR as backup, or an ASP and the AR as backup. Remember, I'm just a simple paramedic, I ain't allowed to carry no gun. I'm still not stupid enough to have my ass hanging out and no insurance in my pocket. If something bad happens and I get some type of warning order over the pager or radio to get my ass to the PD, then it's a diffrent story. I bought an MT from Mike at Badass and I'm carrying that sucker and the AR. Let it be known, I still like the AR better than the MT. Sometimes I carry a MOD Dieter large folder in a quickdraw custom sheath by bladetech. I know, I know, that thing is a pale comparison to my "baby", but that thing draws pretty G.D. fast from that sheath. I used to think the draw was no big deal, just get the thing out and into play. Then I went to Blackwater Lodge for two weeks of handgun and watched Al and Dale........DAM!
 
The ASP is a good idea. I have a couple of them. I like the alum. alloy model since it is lighter and can be maneuvered quicker.
Man, I wish I had my AR...:(
 
Interesting thread. Found out about it on the HI forum.
Hope like most here to never be in a knife fight.
I agree with Rusty on the use of a Khukuri in a defensive role, that if you did connect with one the effect would be devastating.
However in the practical light, I do remember an old friend describing being stabbed. He said when he was stabbed near the kidney the fight was all over as he hit the ground unconcious! This does lend credibility to the thrust method. I'm a believer!
 
I thought about khukuris too, but this is a different animal than, say a Strider MT. MTs can cut and stabb. A Khukuri when weilded as a weapon is usually a cleaving weapon, as is the japanese sword. Cleave or stab. Cleaving a head off is different from trying to cut or slash. A cleaving weapon that is also designed to poke well, such as a pointier khukuri, a yataghan or a katana, you have yourself a sweet weapon! You also have yourself a heavier weapon that, as Rusty said, is a little harder to stuff down your pants :)
 
Although the Spartans used the phalanx as their primary line of battle, just as modern warfare is fought out at the greatest possible distance, when the battle closed into "the hole" they could go to their backup blade, a sword called the Xiphos,which was short in length but had a leaf-shaped (or wasp-waisted) blade for slashing as well as stabbing ability. We might learn a lesson from this in seeing that, as I believe Jerry Hossom stated in an earlier post on another topic, that versatility is king in the situation being discussed here. Yes, stabbing wounds are more deadly, but also much more difficult to achieve than cuts.
Another aspect of stabs, of which I personally have no specific knowlege, is the increased likelihood of losing one's weapon to either muscle contraction locking the blade into place or the recipient of the injury wrapping themselves around the blade in reaction to the hit. Can anyone here elaborate on this phenomenon?
 
Howdy again... Just saw that a poster Aversin posted, and it kinda rhymed with me... Iverson.

I posted very early on in this thread.... but was talking with friend of mine recently who was in the military... I am not exactly sure what his specialty was, but he made a lot of sense when I asked him what he was trained to do if fighting/defending in a fight with a knife. His quote was, and I quote loosely:


"GET IN THERE; and expect to be cut... but try not to get cut in areas that will result in your death. Cut the other guy in places that will hurt and distract him... until you can cut/slash/stab him in a place/places that will kill him. Then get medical treatment if you yourself have been cut/slashed/stabbed."


Now, the above quote has been edited for language content, cuz I fu*kin' hate obscenities (ha ha) but that's really all I have to go on, and it made damn good sense to me.


-Dave
 
For a nice neck attack check out Russell Crowe's technique in the movie "Proof of Life". It was towards the end and simply dreamy.
By the way, I'm a New Jersian. There's no way to legally carry a concealed firearm so a knife is the only option. My success in a bad situation can't be assurred, but the "I will not lose" thoughts can. In this situation failure doesn't even exist so success is the only thing that I'll know. I'll post my bloody knife if it happens (I'll try to get some meat on there as well).
 
Just my own meager input....

I'm yet another untrained individual, never been in, or hope to be in ANY kind of altercation with a weapon. and I don't know a damn thing about "knife fighting"

So, as Mick stated, no guns, no running, KILLING WITH A KNIFE, I'm going to use a reverse grip and go at the neck and face like a wild man. I'm not a knife fighter, warrior, soldier or anything of that nature, so I want to end things ASAP. I'm very big,bulky, not extremely quick, and I have an odd way of losing all coordination when I'm scared outta my damn mind. If I go toe to toe in some kinda dramatic duel, I'm probably going to have my intestines handed to me in a grubby plastic bucket. What I have learned as an EMS care provider and working around an Emergency room awhile is that people who are stabbed in the neck, heart, lungs, etc. tend to find themselves "celestially challenged" in a damn hurry. slashes are scary, and messy, and dramatic, Medics wheel them into the ER, blood soaked bandages everywhere, patient is in shock, and everyone is in a big frenetic state of panic. The doctor looks at the lacerations/s and everyone cringes, etc. but the fact is they are not nearly as bad as an ugly puncture. I find it interesting how many other prehospital care providers have noted this same thing.

So, once again. I'm no kind of fighter, and I want to end things fast. I'm doing my damndest to get inside of them, irregardless of thier choice of a weapon. and stabbing for the subclavean artery, a carotid artery, heart, lungs, and most anything else I can get at in the upper body, eyes, mouth or anything else. If i find myself in a nasty situation with my knife lowered I'll go for the abdominal cavity, the testicles,penis, or femoral arteries, or maybe try to slash the backs of the knees to break them to the ground. I know this is very much a paraphrase of what Micks already stated, but it's the thought that's been running through my mind for awhile whenever I've considered this question. In all Candor it was nice to see Mick's perceptions indicate that thus far, I'm at least not going completely 180 from what could save my life in my philosophies.

If there are multiple opponents, and I still can't run off like a scared little girl I think I'd WANT my back to a corner or a wall. Seems that retreat isn't an option at this point anyways, and it seems like it would be a good thing to have at least my back protected, if nothing else can be. It also seems to me that it would make overall access by multiple opponents much more difficult. as far as the technique I'd be sticking to the same as forementioned. This isn't anything I've ever read, studied, etc. and by no means insist I'm correct in this. it's the perspective of a totally untrained person that wants to survive, so tell me if I'm ack basswards on this, please.

As far as going to the ground (where I'm usually very comfortable) I have no damn idea what I'd do. And I'm a person with quite a few medals from grappling too. Throw a knife or other weapon into the mix, and I'm screwed. Obviously I want to gain some control over the weapon hand. I'm a little stronger than most men physically, so hopefully this would be one of the rare areas where brute strength could prevail? I hope...Also, if they happen to be on top of me, and that damn close I'd probably bite any damn thing that I could, throat, nose, ear, or whatever. also consider gouging the eyes with my empty hand. try to occupy them with concerns of thier face so they maybe lose focus on thier attempts to ventilate me. Even if that's not an immediate way to nuetralize a person, it's still gonna have SOME effect. Obviously if I'm able to keep myself from being stabbed/shot/bludgeoned/shocked I want to be doing the stabbing, once again with a prison style reverse grip attack at the upperbody, trying to get at the vitals. Once again, I'm at even more of a loss at the thought of going to the ground than I am at the rest of the question. What do y'all think? how to handle the ground fighting?

As y'all have noted, I'm a fan of the reverse grip. It just seems to work best for my build, and my experience. hopefully as I learn more and progress I'll learn more versatile grips lending me range when necessary, etc. but...for now, I'm pretty well sticking with the reverse grip. As long as I'm conscious not to make some kind of huge, arching "Friday the 13th" attack I think it'll give me the best chance possible under the dire circumstances.

Awesome thread by the way! I feel that I've assimilated quite a bit here. hope Y'all have a good 'un!
 
Hi all
First off, this is a very interesting thread. Mick, what you said about not sleeping well after an encounter is true for sure...because just after reading this thread, I doubt I will sleep the same.:) I mean, this is scary to me. I guess you could say that I live a sheltered live in someways. I am not sheltered from conflict and fighting(I guess thats what happens because my parents hate each other) but from using a knife as a weapon. I think of knives as tools but I know they have a grave potential as a weapon.
I can understand knowing martial arts. I used to be in them up until I was 12. I have forgotten most everything over the 5-6years I have been out of it. For me at a young age, it taught me to avoid conflict. My teacher(who is a national nunchucka champion) always told us that it is best to run run run if a confrontation arises. Yeah, you look like a chicken but you still have all your feathers!:) I am thinking of joining back with Tae kwondo because they now teach weapons. How do you think chucks would fair in a knife attack? What about one of those telescoping batons? About the only thing I am lethal and affective with now is my Bull whip. It wouldn't be deadly right away but it can lascerate the CPU severly. Plus the "bark" of a whip tends to freak people out especially if they have never seen one "sing".
I am really glad that you guys brought this up. I am honestly scared $hitless of all of you...call it healthy respect...I am just glad you guys are nice unlike some of the people you have fought. Also I am amazed that this thread hasn't gotten out of control...generally things get heated in discussions like this. Thanks very much for the informative thread. I hope to learn more from all of you.
Regards,
Luke Freeouf
 
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