Warning on 1st Generation Native sale - got cut

A

AlonzoMosely

Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
250
I just received my $19.99 Spydie first generation Native from Smoky Mountain Knife Works. The blade does not close as far as it should and the tip was barely covered by the handle. The result was that when I was holding it, it sliced my index finger, though it wasn't too bad because it wasn't able to penetrate much. Camillus (who handles the warranty) said that the problem is that the spring is too big and I should return it to be fixed. I just wanted to warn everyone before anyone's fingers or pants are cut in case this problem is not isolated .
 
Originally posted by AlonzoMosely
Camillus (who handles the warranty) ...
warn everyone before anyone's fingers or pants are cut in case this problem is not isolated .
Click to expand...

What you got was a BRK Native. Camillus produced them, in a joint effort with spyderco, way back when. Spyderco has a 440a model in th 96 cat, but says prod started in 97(going by timeline in 96 cat, and home site "edge-u-caution"). 97 was already G-2, as was 98. 2000 sees 440V prod.

trhe QC is way below spyderco standards, as they were not produced BY spyderco. the $20USD is more than what they are worth. It's a beater, to be trusted as much as a slipjoint.
 
Well... that explains a lot. I appreciate the info. I figured I was getting the equivalent of a current Native but with the lesser 425 steel. I didn't realize it's not really a Spyderco. I guess if a deal seems to good to be true, it really is.
 
Before I knew any better, I bought the BRK Native and expected a Spyderco. Let's just say I was very disappointed, but I'm certianly glad to know that my knife isn't representative of Spyderco quality.

It has since been relinquished to my pseudo-BOB in case something needs to be prodded to death. :rolleyes:
 
I agree with all of the above! When Smoky Mtn first offered them I couldn't believe the price! I ordered six, three plain and three combo, that varied from marginal to down right awful! I called customer service at SMKW and they were very nice and I got the impression from my conversation that my wasn't the first complaint. I ended up returning four hassle free and keeping the two barely functional ones as beaters.

phantom4
 
This has been covered to some extent by Sal at Spyderco, but what I wonder is:

What are they all hitting the market now?

I don't have one, nor will I buy one, but I'm surprised that no one goes to Camillus and says WTF where you thinking?

It would be nice if all the sellers clearly stated these aren't spyderco knives. :mad: IMO, whoever is distributing these knives now should destroy them, it sounds like they are so poorely put together as being unsafe.
 
Huh.

I also ordered six of them awhile back (IIRC from Discount Knives), and sold five (kept the nicest one for myself).

Everyone I sold them to seems to be pleased, although these guys probably aren't as "knife savvy" as most of us.

I closely examined each one and found nothing dangerous. All locked well and had their blades covered when closed. Fit and finish were not great. Beaters. Someone has commented they were not even "Camillus quality" and I'd have to agree. What WERE they thinking?

IMO, the ones I saw were worth about what I paid--$24.00. I wonder if some others are even worse, though?

I like mine, since I like Natives and I think it is an "interesting" addition to my collection.

Karl
 
Unless you want a really cheep throw away beater, stay well clear of the BRK Native's. Even then I would say something like the Opinel would be much better value.

There's a reason Spyderco decided not to except them when they were made for them several years ago, their rubish :(

The real Spyderco Native is an excellent knife, one of my favourites. I cringe everytime I see the Spyderco name on the BRK First Generatiom, and I suspect Spyderco does as well.
 
I know smkw has been selling these for a while now. My understanding is that there have been ALOT of complaints about these knives. Ive heard that aside form camillus and spyderco doing this venture that blue ridge knives had a hand also (in manufacturing process), which could definitely explain the quality issue, does anyone know anything about this?
 
I find it a little disturbing that everyone has totally absolved Spyderco of any wrong doing with regard to these knives.

They worked to get the knives made, regardless of their ultimate quality it's a Spyderco knife. If it were being put out by Cold Steel people would be calling for their heads.

Sure it's not indicative of overall Spyderco quality but don't forget that Spyderco is ultimately the maker of the knife regardless of who manufactured it or distributes it.

"There's a reason Spyderco decided not to except them when they were made for them several years ago, their rubbish"

"but I'm surprised that no one goes to Camillus and says WTF where you thinking"

Do you guys really think Spyderco did not authorize the sale of these knives? Give me a break - you can't be that gullible...
 
I don't get that impression from what Sal said at all. He was rather vague in accepting responsibility for the product but did not absolve Spyderco.

Do you really believe that if they will go after just about anyone marketing a Spyderhole that is not licensed they would allow an inferior product with their name on it be dumped on the market without their knowing about it or being able to stop it? Especially when it's being done by one of their best distributors and one of the worlds largest American manufacturers?

Nope, Spyderco still has control over what products have their name on it.

Are you going to send a defective BRK Native to Camillus, Blue Ridge Knives or Spyderco?

I could see if Sal came out and said that this was an unauthorized product, do not buy it because we will not warranty it, but he didn't.

Companies use third parties all of the time to make components and you never find out about it. In this case Spyderco just kind of unleashed the dogs on Camillus instead of accepting responsibility for it, it's called damage control and/or selling out your suppliers.

It's a POS knife made by Spyderco - no more no less.
 
This whole thing really confuses me.

So, Camillus originally made the blades, and had the mold to make the handles. They apparently completed a whole bunch of blades, the locks, and the springs.

I would have to guess they made over 1000, just based on the number I've seen on Ebay, and the number that SMKW has sold.

But they didn't make the handles? Even though they already had the mold? :confused:

From my understanding, it's not that expensive to make FRN handles, especially once the mold is made. And, I don't think it would cost that much to assemble the knives.

What could have happened that would cause the deal to fall through?

If there are such obvious quality control issues, why didn't Spyderco stop them from selling the knives? Why would Spyderco allow this BRK company to sell so many inferior quality blades as "Spyderco Natives"?

The BRK part is NOT enough to distinguish the knives from other Spyderco products.

And, to top it all off, Spyderco doesn't even cover them under warranty?

Spyderco must have a very good reason to have allowed this.

How many cuts/injuries does it take to ruin a companies reputation? Sure, its only one product. But its a product that bears the name of one of their best selling knives.

How many customers will understand that this isn't an actual Spyderco quality product?

Just my $.02

-- Rob
 
It's all about awareness.

Yes, 90% of the public(of the knife owners), and about 75% of the knife crowd(bfc and such), would buy it thinking it was a normal spyderco. I knew because I have heard about it a few times. Gin-1(1997) was the first year spyderco has the c41 in their books as a production year. the only 440a model in the books is 96, and thats before it's in the spyderco history.
 
Spyderco gave their lame excuse in their forum. To tell the truth, I forgot it because it was so lame.

Spyderco quality has always been spotty. I own a fair number of their blades and have sent things back on more than one occasion. They usually make it good, but not always to my full satisfaction. I have had a brittle blade fracture, new knives become loose within one day, dishwasher safe handles disingrate, blades rub on liners, uneven grinds on at least 3 knives, poor fit finish on micarta handles, designer marks wear off the blade and screws fall out.

The only thing I have trouble forgiving them for is their design flaws that they don't honor. For example, a clip screwed into Micarta ripped out. They would not repair the damage (simple 15 minute job of setting the screw in the metal liner or putting in some inserts.) Instead they replaced the knife. OK, but I liked the original one better, and the flaw was not accidental it was a design flaw that shouldn't have made it out of engineering. My second design flaw was a ATS55 tip that broke off with no prying or abuse, just impact against glass. On this forum I learned ATS55 was brittle, I thought the blade should be replaced. They only reground my tip and sent me a letter that from now on they would charge for this repair.

Don't forget, Spyderco has not always been on strong financial footing. They probably either needed the money from this run of cheap Natives, or could not afford to buy up the blades to save their reputation.

However, Cammilus quality runs the full spectrum from great (e.g. Mad Max) to very poor (e.g. low priced slip joints). Don't ever buy one of their knives w/o inspection.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
Spyderco gave their lame excuse in their forum. To tell the truth, I forgot it because it was so lame.

Spyderco quality has always been spotty. I own a fair number of their blades and have sent things back on more than one occasion. They usually make it good, but not always to my full satisfaction. I have had a brittle blade fracture, new knives become loose within one day, dishwasher safe handles disingrate, blades rub on liners, uneven grinds on at least 3 knives, poor fit finish on micarta handles, designer marks wear off the blade and screws fall out.

The only thing I have trouble forgiving them for is their design flaws that they don't honor. For example, a clip screwed into Micarta ripped out. They would not repair the damage (simple 15 minute job of setting the screw in the metal liner or putting in some inserts.) Instead they replaced the knife. OK, but I liked the original one better, and the flaw was not accidental it was a design flaw that shouldn't have made it out of engineering. My second design flaw was a ATS55 tip that broke off with no prying or abuse, just impact against glass. On this forum I learned ATS55 was brittle, I thought the blade should be replaced. They only reground my tip and sent me a letter that from now on they would charge for this repair.

Don't forget, Spyderco has not always been on strong financial footing. They probably either needed the money from this run of cheap Natives, or could not afford to buy up the blades to save their reputation.

However, Cammilus quality runs the full spectrum from great (e.g. Mad Max) to very poor (e.g. low priced slip joints). Don't ever buy one of their knives w/o inspection.
Click to expand...



Yo dude, ya should’a just got a Sebenza! ;) :p



PEACE!
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
The only thing I have trouble forgiving them for is their design flaws that they don't honor. For example, a clip screwed into Micarta ripped out. They would not repair the damage (simple 15 minute job of setting the screw in the metal liner or putting in some inserts.) Instead they replaced the knife.
Click to expand...

They gave you a new knife. What more did you expect them to do? They didn't just take an economic loss by giving you a new knife for no reason. Either it was prohibitively expensive to fix it or the knife was otherwise unsuitable for use.

My second design flaw was a ATS55 tip that broke off with no prying or abuse, just impact against glass. On this forum I learned ATS55 was brittle, I thought the blade should be replaced. They only reground my tip and sent me a letter that from now on they would charge for this repair.
Click to expand...

I don't know who you've been talking to, but impact against glass DEFINITELY qualifies as abuse. It's a knife. If you want to bust glass, get a brick. If you're careless enough that you accidentally jabbed glass, it's your own fault. And if you dropped it on glass -- well, quit dropping your knife.

Everyone else:
I've had somewhere around fifty Spydercos. I've had /one/ QC problem. There was a blemish on the liner of my Gunting trainer. By blemish I mean a 2mm by 2mm spot was copper colored. That's it.
 
Impact on glass was not abuse, it was an accident and the tip should not have fractured. The window-plate glass didn't even break. If it was either a steel or heat treat problem. ATS55 is a spyderco product, so is the heat treat, thus they take full blame. It was clearly a fracture due to a steel problem. Spyderco admitted it as such, that is why they repaired the knife. The form letter they sent me as to charging next time was in direct opposition to what the service person told me on the phone.

As to the micarta handle problem, I expected them to fix it. When they said they wouldn't, just replace the knife. I offered to pay for the repair. They wouldn't do that either. When I send in old models to Benchmade, they fix em...maybe because all their production is done at one plant, where their repair shop is located. For the Japanese and Taiwan knives, Spyderco doesn't always have the parts in Golden, thus they replace, not repair. I got that from Spyderco.

I also have spydercos that are perfect, that's why I say their quality is spotty. However, if you have that many spydercos, I find it hard to believe they all get used and used hard. Every spyderco I own gets carried at least once a week. I don't baby them.

I can get 4-5 designer knives from spyderco for the price of one sebenza. Thats a lot more play time for the same money. :)
 
brownshoe, I must say I find your comments a little hard to believe. I've been buying Spydercos since they first statred and quality control, with the exception of the BRK Natives, has never been an issue and I own well over a hundred. I have some early model plain edge blades theat I find hard to get a good edge on but there was never any problem with QC and I consider my self fairly picky. Also, I think replacing a damaged knife is hardly something to take issue with. Most people would prefer a new knife. If you prefer the old one you either have to leave with the problem or repair it yourself but bitching because you are getting a new one is a bit much. Abuse is abuse whether it is accidental or intentional. It seems to me you should be happy they reground the tip free of charge since it wasn't even a covered repair. Everone is entitled to their opinion but your experience differs so radically from my own and I would say that of most of the members of this forum that I think perhaps your standards are too high for production knives and maybe you should stick to buying customs.

phantom4
 
Hi guys. Ok, I am here at your service. I can try to bring you up to date or answer questions.

First of all, Alonzo, I'm very sorry that you received injury.

It is truly a shame because there are few companies that extend the energy and effort that we do to make our knives safe.

The BRK Native is an anomoly. If I had to do over again, I can honestly say that I wouldn't. The project was put together by Spyderco's General manager, Camillus and BRK. Camillus had blades from the original project which fell through and this was to be an opportunity to use the blades and provide a "lowerer cost" Spyderco to the general market. It was supposed to be a win-win-win situation. Perhaps not all are winning?

I know that the stigma of the model will cost Spyderco a great deal in the long run, both in lost sales and bad rap. There is little that we can do now but "grin and bear it".

I have not seen them, but I understand that they are not on a par with our normal quality. I was assured that they would be good quality. The samples checked by our General Manager and Mfg mgr were "supposedly" OK.

There were thousands of them made so they will be around for a while.

Spyderco required that all complaints be handled by Camillus or BRK and they agreed to comply. At this time, I would have to log it as a error on my part. Not my first error and probably not my last.

I have more than once trashed an entire run because they wouldn't meet my standards. That is our normal policy.

The General Manager is gone. The Mfg manager is gone and I am once again making all of the decisions. All we can do now is try harder to create superior products and show that it was a "one shot deal".

I do accept responsibility for the error in judgement.
Camillus and BRK have accepted the responsibility for complaints. Now our goal is to try to get past it with as few scars as possible.

sal
 
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