Warning: Poor Selling Practices from Brendtech189

Ludwig

Ludwig

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Feb 25, 2007
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Okay - I have never had anything but positive experiences with the great people here after quite a few dealings with the other members.

But last night's experience with user: Brendtech189 really grinds my gears as it happened in less than an hours time. I am going to be as detailed as possible so he cannot as easily claim a misunderstanding or I'll take it rule applies. Long-ish story below:

I sent an email cash offer for his item around 10:30 or 11:00pm. He posted in his thread that the knife was available at 11:35pm and followed up with me at 11:40pm that he would accept my offer and agree to split the PP fees and cover USPS Priority shipping fully insured (his words). He also provided his PP details and told me he would ship it out tomorrow and would confirm once payment was received. Unfortunately, he miscalculated the total and quoted me the full 3.5% of PP fees.

No big deal so I replied at 11:59pm asking him to run me through his calculation for splitting the PP fee, told him what I was getting based on the agreed terms, and to get back to me before I sent him payment. Then I posted an I'll take it publicly in his sale thread at 12:03am again asking him to get back to me so I could send payment.

I then receive an email from him at 12:19am that another member (humblerodent) contacted him first, that he has to go by timestamp, and the knife has sold. I'm scratching my head wondering why he accepted my offer in the first place then if humble had beaten me with his earlier post at 8:05pm (which was NOT an I'll take it) and go to the thread to find him making the same timestamp claim, PP sent by humblerodent, and knife is sold.

I am just a tad pissed at this point that we had the knife exchange equivalent of a handshake but before he bothered to reply to either of my requests for the correct payment total - he just sold the knife out from under me. I post in his thread requesting that he clear up what just happened considering our agreed upon deal and my I'll take it which is the ONLY ONE on the thread.

Ten minutes later he posts in the thread that he is following the time stamp rule and that our deal was not finalized because I was trying to figure out what to pay - sale closed sorry. Excuse me? This is some bitter icing on the cake when I asked him to clarify the total in order for me to send payment in two different places after he accepted my offer. He miscalculated the fees and that's on me? If he's following time stamp rule, I'm willing to bet his acceptance of my offer at 11:40pm is first.

Since closing the thread Brendtech189 has reiterated his adherence to the rules and now claims that he misinterpreted my offer when he himself said in his response he would split PP fees with me and fully cover the shipping. Even if I give him that, is it so difficult to shoot me a reply explaining as much when I have requested TWICE that he contact me so we could close the deal? A little common courtesy goes a long way around here, but apparently not when the seller sees a way of getting a better deal for himself after he has already accepted another offer.

I am more than happy to provide mods with the emails between Brendtech189 and myself and to CLARIFY any points. I would also like to state that the final buyer, humblerodent is a good guy and not at fault in any way.

I have always bought/sold here believing an accepted offer in email/PM and public I'll take it constitutes a set deal between two members. Apparently not to Brendtech189. And as much as you tell yourself this man - requests from me to confirm the final amount owed so I can send payment do not constitute attempts at further negotiation.

There will be other dealings for me in the future but I have no intention of ever doing business with Brendtech189 again and hope this serves as a warning of the way he conducts deals here.

I welcome anyone to chime in if I'm being unreasonable.

Sales thread in question:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ion-Timascus-amp-Carbon-Fiber-Beautiful-Knife

Thanks.
 
My limited 2 cents based on your post: If a seller enters into an agreement for sale, then backs out claiming it is due to the timestamp, I would think this would have been mentioned in the sales post (still does not explain accepting your offer). if not, then it' sounds as if seller is using this as an excuse after the fact. Seller sounds like one to avoid.
 
Get over it.

Your money is still in your pocket.

The most you lost was an opportunity.

Maybe the knife was flawed and you wouldn't have wanted it anyway and Karma worked in your favor, but you just blew it by complaining now.
 
brownshoe said:
Get over it.

Your money is still in your pocket.

The most you lost was an opportunity.

Maybe the knife was flawed and you wouldn't have wanted it anyway and Karma worked in your favor, but you just blew it by complaining now.
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Wait what?

Get over it?

So he clearly mislead someone and/or another for at least one moment in time ( without investigating any other details, the fact he accepted an offer to one party, then the next communication explains its now sold means when he accepted offer #2, offer #1 believed he was still receiving the knife [ now is where it gets interesting because WHY would he accept two offers at once KNOWING it was not only a public, but an internet public forum? ] )

Ideally we could all be the seller who gets buyers to pricefight for our goods/services. All you are advocating by advising the "just get over it" technique is to accept these practices (probably because you benefit from them in some form or another in your own life)

To be clear, i have been in the OPs shoes a lot. Putting your trust out to the internet is a tender nerve. In common business practices its customary to stick to the deal (especially that crucial FIRST deal) TO THE LETTER to inspire confidence and trust to your business relationship.

Why don't YOU just accept THAT?
 
Probably best to hear from the Seller in this case as well; before final judgements are made. We got one side of the story - the other would be helpful. No one lost or had to put out any money so it is not the end of the world. I would say that seller does not say anything about charging the buyer/or spliiting paypal fees. So I do not think it would be cool to attmept to negotiate that later. From the post one would assume there are not PP fees. Does this probably belong here - maybe not.
 
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What a shame, I would be mad too if we had a deal and then was told it was sold to some one ells. That looks like a sweet knife! also going off of the thread, that blade should have been yours. Unless the buyer had PM'd the seller a lot sooner then what his PM sent post on the thread shows. The seller then posted Still available hours after the PM was sent from the buyer. Maybe if Humble could tell us what time he PM'd the seller all this could be resolved and maybe all just a misunderstanding.
 
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I have no idea what happened here because the other party hasn't chimed in.

As far as a better deal coming along, it's happened to me. I have always honored the first offer that I agreed to. My way of dealing with it now is to immediately edit the title of my thread and clearly state in the thread that the offer is off the table. Even so, I've still gotten an offer here and there. Once from a guy that was angling for me to dump the offer that I had already agreed to.

Not cool.
 
I am the buyer mentioned in this post. I'll try to remain impartial in this case as I see it, despite the fact that I ended up with the item.

The facts I can provide:
At 8:04PM I sent a PM to the seller expressing my interest in purchasing the item and asked a few questions about it. He replied at 11:32PM. At this point, since my initial PM was not a clear cut "I'll take it", he updated the sales thread with "still available". However, now that my questions were answered, I did in fact say "I'll take it" via PM. It seems in the intervening minutes between the seller's still available post and his receiving my I'll take it PM, the OP emailed the seller with an offer. We can't know for sure how the ensuing negotiations went without word from the seller, but he told me that him and OP were still discussing final price when I sent him an I'll take it PM, and since my initial inquiry was prior to OP's he was selling it to me.

My take:
Again, trying to stay impartial. For the most part I don't believe the seller did anything wrong. But the situation can get sticky when simultaneously entertaining questions and offers from two interested buyers. I personally as a seller tell all parties that the first interested buyer has first rights, and if they pass (or don't respond in a timely manner) then I'll go to the next in line. However, this could leave me as a seller in a position where I don't get the knife sold despite multiple interested parties. I know there are plenty of other sellers that will only sell to the first clear cut "I'll take it" despite all previous questions and offers. Both selling strategies are just fine and ultimately the seller can choose to sell to whomever he wants. The seller in this case honored both the initial inquiry and the first unconditional "I'll take it." That being said, the seller definitely could have been more forthcoming with all interested parties.

The takeaway:
My experiences with the seller have been very positive. He is a great guy and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him as someone to do business with. To avoid these sticky situations, if you are a buyer, post an unconditional I'll take it and you shouldn't have any problems. As a seller, please be forthcoming with all interested parties and have a clear selling plan. We have a great community here and I hate for these types of posts to get started over situations like this. There is no scam here, though I fully understand why OP is upset. I also would have been upset if it had gone to OP instead of me.
 
Hello B.F.ers, I am the seller and Ludwig had not made a firm offer or he wouldn't have contacted me asking how much "HE" wanted to pay. I went with the earlier timestamp and after a few questions humblerodent said that he would take the knife. I did what I would have wanted done to myself, the earlier timestamp gets the knife. It would have been an entirely different situation if the knife had alread been paid for by Ludwig and I think this entire thing is about the fact that he was trying to bargain about $7.00 and while doing so the knife got sold to the earlier timestamp. My advice to Ludwig is that in the future if he wants a knife to not whine about spending $7.00 on Pay Pal fees but to buy the knife when he can obviously see that others that had an earlier timestamp were interested. We obviously did not have a solid deal in place if he was e mailing me asking how much he had to pay and the least amount that he could get away with doing so. Sometimes its better to pay $7.00 more and get the knife as he would have if he wasn't whining about P.P. fees. I acted correctly going with the earlier timestamp and we did not have a firm offer as his last email was asking how much he had to pay and why he had to pay for full P.P. fees. I went with the earlier timestamp that was fully prepared to follow my terms and the deal was done.
It does get tricky when two people are trying to get the knife at the same time, but once again, I went with the earlier timestamp and Ludwig would have gotten the knife if he wouldn't have wasted half an hour complaining about a $7.00 P.P. charge. I have never had any negative sales ever before and I still stick to going with the earlier timestamp as they get precident over other inquiries.
Plus, I emailed Ludwig three times trying to explain to him why I went with the earlier timestamp and how we did not have a firm offer if he was still asking me how much he has to pay but he chose not to listen to any of my emails and threatened me with a post in this section, that doesn't sound too professional to me.
 
Yeah, in this case I would have sold to Humblerodent, the first party to lay a claim, even if it wasn't clear cut I'll take it. He shouldn't have even hinted to Ludwig that he was at the first of the line, but mistakes happen, and this is very tame compared to a lot of the screwing over that goes on with knife deals.

Ludwig, you are for the most part honest in your description of what happened (I don't feel it's as clear cut that you were first in line as you do), but I think you are being a bit unreasonable here. You were the second person interested in purchasing the knife, that is clear. He should have at the very least apologized for his hasty dealing, but it is what it is. Everyone now knows that the seller is hasty in his dealings now, so if that was your intent you succeeded. I myself wouldn't want to enter in to a deal with someone that displayed the type of haste he did if I were in your shoes, and as a seller I wouldn't want to deal with someone that was so quick to sling mud in a relatively harmless mistake.
 
Brendtech189 said:
Hello B.F.ers, I am the seller and Ludwig had not made a firm offer or he wouldn't have contacted me asking how much "HE" wanted to pay. I went with the earlier timestamp and after a few questions humblerodent said that he would take the knife. I did what I would have wanted done to myself, the earlier timestamp gets the knife. It would have been an entirely different situation if the knife had alread been paid for by Ludwig and I think this entire thing is about the fact that he was trying to bargain about $7.00 and while doing so the knife got sold to the earlier timestamp. My advice to Ludwig is that in the future if he wants a knife to not whine about spending $7.00 on Pay Pal fees but to buy the knife when he can obviously see that others that had an earlier timestamp were interested. We obviously did not have a solid deal in place if he was e mailing me asking how much he had to pay and the least amount that he could get away with doing so. Sometimes its better to pay $7.00 more and get the knife as he would have if he wasn't whining about P.P. fees. I acted correctly going with the earlier timestamp and we did not have a firm offer as his last email was asking how much he had to pay and why he had to pay for full P.P. fees. I went with the earlier timestamp that was fully prepared to follow my terms and the deal was done.
It does get tricky when two people are trying to get the knife at the same time, but once again, I went with the earlier timestamp and Ludwig would have gotten the knife if he wouldn't have wasted half an hour complaining about a $7.00 P.P. charge. I have never had any negative sales ever before and I still stick to going with the earlier timestamp as they get precident over other inquiries.
Plus, I emailed Ludwig three times trying to explain to him why I went with the earlier timestamp and how we did not have a firm offer if he was still asking me how much he has to pay but he chose not to listen to any of my emails and threatened me with a post in this section, that doesn't sound too professional to me.
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I'll take it is as firm as it gets. If he posts I'll take it, that means he is going to pay what you asked.
 
Here we go again with Brendtech189 claiming I was still trying to negotiate $7 - this is simply not true. And I was complaining for half an hour? I sent you two replies within 20 minutes asking you to confirm with me the CORRECT price. You messed up the math of splitting the fee. But you couldn't bother to get back to me?

Private emails cannot be posted without both party's consent. I would certainly like to do so.

And I understand humble contacted you first. If you're so strict on giving it to the first person to contact you, try to avoid accepting other offers . . .
 
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My advice to Ludwig is that in the future if he wants a knife to not whine about spending $7.00 on Pay Pal fees but to buy the knife when he can obviously see that others that had an earlier timestamp were interested.
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I agree with everything you said! But going off of the for sale Thread you posted still available hours after the PM's were sent. Again just going off of the For sale Thread. Obviously PM's were still being sent. I can see why Ludwig is upset, but he was not the first to be interested in the knife. Going off of the info provided by all members involved i would not hesitate to buy from any of you.
Update was reading post again.....

He also provided his PP details and told me he would ship it out tomorrow and would confirm once payment was received.
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Just my opinion but If this is true then the deal is pretty much done. Money was ultimately not exchanged so the deal was not set in stone. But for me once i provide PP info I'm agreeing to sell to the interested person, and the deal is pretty much Done. Again just my Opinion.
 
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This is one of those gray areas that happens from time to time. My advice to Ludwig is to put it into the category of "not meant to be" and move on. Don't let it fester. There are a lot more knives out there.
 
brownshoe said:
Get over it.

Your money is still in your pocket.

The most you lost was an opportunity.

Maybe the knife was flawed and you wouldn't have wanted it anyway and Karma worked in your favor, but you just blew it by complaining now.
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This could have been said with a bit (ok a lot) more tact, but I pretty much agree.

Looking at the sale thread, it is a beautiful knife so I can understand why OP is upset. But sometimes stuff like this happens. It's the chance you take with not posting an unequivocal "I'll take it" and trying to negotiate the price instead. If you see something and fall in love with it, it's usually best to bite the bullet and pay the asking price, or else somebody else might come along and snatch it out from under you.
 
Couldn't headaches be avoided if you abide by the rule that more or less states the buyer of goods is not responsible for fees? The fees cut into the sellers take, put a damn price on something that you are comfortable with and know you are going to get fees deducted on the transaction. Cuts out all the BS of negotiating fees.
 
I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer as to how this should have been decided.

Personally I would not have a problem buying from Brendtech189 after reading all this.

If the buyer and seller did not agree on the amount that needed to be paid then they were still negotiating. Perhaps the OP's offer should have been more specific, "I'll pay you $XXX dollars which is your price plus half of the paypal fees" or something like that. With that deal up in the air then I would sell to anybody that offered an, "I'll take it" and paid my asking price. The nature of selling things on this site is that things sell quickly or get buried quickly. There is usually a flurry of emails/pms at first and you may be answering questions or entertaining offers from multiple people at the same time. So when someone says, "I'll take it", they get preference over the tire kickers and low ballers.

That being said, I hate it when people ask me to pay their paypal feels. The fees are a cost of doing business and they can be avoided if you ask for for a money order so you're paying for the convenience of getting money instantly. I see a lot of ads, for example lets say an SNG in S30V; I can find it in stock for $400, somebody offers it for $365 +3.5%... ...so when you figure it out, they want $378. I can buy a new one for 22 more with free shipping and a return policy so why would I pay the sellers fees? Yet some sellers won't budge on paypal fees, sometimes they'll accept $350 plus fees but they won't budge on the fees. It's all in how you think about it I guess.
 
Brendtech189 said:
Hello B.F.ers, I am the seller and Ludwig had not made a firm offer or he wouldn't have contacted me asking how much "HE" wanted to pay. I went with the earlier timestamp and after a few questions humblerodent said that he would take the knife. I did what I would have wanted done to myself, the earlier timestamp gets the knife. It would have been an entirely different situation if the knife had alread been paid for by Ludwig and I think this entire thing is about the fact that he was trying to bargain about $7.00 and while doing so the knife got sold to the earlier timestamp. My advice to Ludwig is that in the future if he wants a knife to not whine about spending $7.00 on Pay Pal fees but to buy the knife when he can obviously see that others that had an earlier timestamp were interested. We obviously did not have a solid deal in place if he was e mailing me asking how much he had to pay and the least amount that he could get away with doing so. Sometimes its better to pay $7.00 more and get the knife as he would have if he wasn't whining about P.P. fees. I acted correctly going with the earlier timestamp and we did not have a firm offer as his last email was asking how much he had to pay and why he had to pay for full P.P. fees. I went with the earlier timestamp that was fully prepared to follow my terms and the deal was done.
It does get tricky when two people are trying to get the knife at the same time, but once again, I went with the earlier timestamp and Ludwig would have gotten the knife if he wouldn't have wasted half an hour complaining about a $7.00 P.P. charge. I have never had any negative sales ever before and I still stick to going with the earlier timestamp as they get precident over other inquiries.
Plus, I emailed Ludwig three times trying to explain to him why I went with the earlier timestamp and how we did not have a firm offer if he was still asking me how much he has to pay but he chose not to listen to any of my emails and threatened me with a post in this section, that doesn't sound too professional to me.
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My advice to you is to pay your own paypal fees and not have the buyer pay them for you. It's quite stupid to say, "selling this knife for. $199.99 + 3.5% paypal fees" when you can quickly do some simple math and get your desired amount without even having to mention fees at all ($206.50). Remember, the fees are the SELLERS responsibility, NOT the buyers. That would have been the first way to save you from starring in this thread.

If you knew you had a potential offer based on "timestamp", you should have been clear and not negotiated price with any 2nd party until the 1st "timestamp" qualified with full payment. That is the second way to save you from starring in this thread.

On a personal note, it gets boring seeing thread after thread about this kind of thing, or when someone sent paypal gift, they get burned and then they complain and cry about it in a thred. The is a time and place for Paypal Gift, and for the regular Paypal. I hold that one price listed, without the additional percentages added is the way to go.
 
Buyers must be clear that another person(s) got earlier interest. Not doing so just causes undue headache on all parties involved, like this has proven. If a person responds first you give them priority, but generally it is acceptable to give the first "I'll take it" immediate dominance. If you are probing questions and you get an "I'll take it" then you owe it to all interested parties to tell them what offer you are going with as quickly as you can.
 
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