Warranties are changing

B

Balls Deep

Joined
Jan 2, 2014
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I don't know if the advent of survival tv shows is having an impact on knife warranties or what but ive noticed over time it seems like the warranties are changing.

There used to be several no questions asked warranties on brands like bench made kabar esee spyderco and so on. Some of them downgraded warranties and now you see more the limited life time warranties.

Most recently what I've noticed is that most major companies have included warrant statements around batoning and throwing. So what are thoughts on this? Are knife users getting more abusive? Are companies losing money? Are warranties less necessary because steels are improving?

Warranties are something folks are pretty passionate and so I'm curious about the opinions of the community on this.

To quote the great tommy boys, "if I want a good look at a T-bone steak I could stick my head up a bulls ass, otherwise I could take the butchers word for it." Remember the point of the movie was they couldn't sell oil filters because they didn't have warranties.
 
My opinion is that I'd like to see some evidence of this warranty change you're talking about.
 
Ok, I've noticed companies are being much more up front on product descriptions about warranty pieces. Here's a description of the esee lite on knife center:

ESEE Knives has a no-questions-asked lifetime guarantee against blade and handle breakage. This warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, coatings, cosmetics, edge chipping / dulling, or sheathing. Machetes are considered a professional tool. Anyone purchasing a machete should already know how to properly use and maintain this tool. Due to the thin design, machetes are not designed to be used with a baton or as a prying tool.

The blade of the machete is made in El Salvador by Imacasa. The handle and handle components are made and assembled in the USA.

Esee has been notorious for their no questions asked warranties.
 
KA-BAR Knives, Inc. (the "Company") warrants, to the original purchaser of the knife only, that this knife will be free from defects in material and craftsmanship under normal use and maintenance for the lifetime of the original purchaser. This Limited Warranty does not apply to any failure of, defect in, or damage to the knife caused by normal wear and tear or by improper use, including batoning with or throwing the knife, using the blades as a can opener, chisel, pry bar, screwdriver, digging tool, or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed.

Here's the Kabar example. There are a number of forum users who have expressed that some Kabar models are excellent for some of these purposes: including batoning with or throwing the knife, using the blades as a can opener, chisel, pry bar, screwdriver, digging tool, or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed.
 
Even if the warrenties are changing it's more than likely from people batoning knives, spine whack tests, imitating cold steel videos, etc that it seems they are trying to protect themselves from. Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of average joes think spine whack tests were a good test, I've encountered people old enough to be my dad who thought cold steel was the best because of their destruction tests. Which BTW I would love to be there when they make one of those video's just to pull out my SAK and plunge the can opener into the car hood just to see their reaction.
 
I think that there has been a significant increase in "abusive" treatment of knives. Batoning with folders? Unless one is thrown into a survival type situation, and the folder is all that is available, that should be a no-brainer - just don't. (Personally, if I land in that situation with just a folder, you can bet that I'm going to take every possible precaution to not break the only knife I have.) Spine whack tests on folders - I posted a review on another forum, and got asked if I did a spine whack test (because apparently some people did, and the lock failed). To satisfy the question, I did a light one...but not much more than the knife might experience if it was dropped and landed badly. I looked up the videos, and my reaction was Why are they TRYING to break that knife?. Fixed blades are not indestructible, either - there is a difference between hard use & intentional abuse...and those no-questions-asked, free replacement warranties just beg some people to push a knife to it's limits (or beyond), just for the sake of doing it.
Personally, I don't feel that a knife company should be responsible for replacing a knife that was intentionally abused to the point of breakage; but that can be difficult to ascertain, and sometimes it is more prudent to take the loss vs risk of getting trashed all over the internet. Obviously, the "my knife broke, and ______ replaced it with no problem" story is better PR than "Stay away from _____knives - mine broke, and they wouldn't help me". The good PR sells knives...but the downside is that it encourages abusive behavior because there is no consequence, only reward.
 
I haven't noticed any warranties changing, but I also haven't been looking for it, so I'll take your word. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, though. I agree that knife abuse seems to be on the rise, and makers need to cover themselves. If people took responsibility for breaking their knives doing stupid stuff, all would be fine, but too many people think it's okay to abuse the crap out of something and then expect the maker to supply them with another one. :rolleyes:

edit: Oops. Looks like hhmoore kinda beat me to it.
 
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I have seen a few companies make their warranties a bit stricter. There does seem to be a lot of youtube "field tests" which IMO are destructive. You have to realize that knife manufacturers are a business and their main purpose is to make money/profit. Pleasing the customer comes in second place. The warranty wording just keeps them from going out of business to avoid giving away free knives to idiots who don't know how to use a knife properly in the first place.
 
suedeface said:
I have seen a few companies make their warranties a bit stricter. There does seem to be a lot of youtube "field tests" which IMO are destructive. You have to realize that knife manufacturers are a business and their main purpose is to make money/profit. Pleasing the customer comes in second place. The warranty wording just keeps them from going out of business to avoid giving away free knives to idiots who don't know how to use a knife properly in the first place.
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This ^

Too many people believe that knife companies should finance the user's stupidity with a "if you break it, we fix it" warranty.

A knife is a piece of steel with an edge, any "defect in material and workmanship" should show itself in about 5 minutes of examination, or rarely a bad heat treat or something will become evident early in use.

No matter what a warranty says, its in the best interest of the manufacturer to take care of problems without hassling the user too much. A few posts on a public board like this can ruin a reputation.
 
suedeface said:
I have seen a few companies make their warranties a bit stricter. There does seem to be a lot of youtube "field tests" which IMO are destructive. You have to realize that knife manufacturers are a business and their main purpose is to make money/profit. Pleasing the customer comes in second place. The warranty wording just keeps them from going out of business to avoid giving away free knives to idiots who don't know how to use a knife properly in the first place.
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Pleasing the customer should be about equal to making money as they go hand in hand. I personally have not noticed any big changes in the warranties. On the other hand, I seldom look at warranties until after I buy a knife. I consider the warranty to be about material defects or manufacturing defects and not replacing your knife if you let a train run over it. Please don't do this. You may derail the train.
 
This whole thread made me laugh, BD, you're hilarious!:thumbup:

Of course warranties will change, everything does. I haven't bought a new kabar lately, but I'm sure all then survival type videos on youtube that they ARE NOT for, has made them seriously take a look at their warranty.

I don't read warranties anyway, I don't need to, I'm usually buying Benchmades!:D
 
Balls Deep said:
Ok, I've noticed companies are being much more up front on product descriptions about warranty pieces. Here's a description of the esee lite on knife center:

ESEE Knives has a no-questions-asked lifetime guarantee against blade and handle breakage. This warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, coatings, cosmetics, edge chipping / dulling, or sheathing. Machetes are considered a professional tool. Anyone purchasing a machete should already know how to properly use and maintain this tool. Due to the thin design, machetes are not designed to be used with a baton or as a prying tool.

The blade of the machete is made in El Salvador by Imacasa. The handle and handle components are made and assembled in the USA.

Esee has been notorious for their no questions asked warranties.
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I think this example is not a very good one, as ESEE/Rowen doesn't make the product. As far as I know, the warranty hasn't changed for anything else. It might not have even changed for the LM, this may just be a warning to use it wisely. In my experience, machetes baton OK actually.

Balls Deep said:
KA-BAR Knives, Inc. (the "Company") warrants, to the original purchaser of the knife only, that this knife will be free from defects in material and craftsmanship under normal use and maintenance for the lifetime of the original purchaser. This Limited Warranty does not apply to any failure of, defect in, or damage to the knife caused by normal wear and tear or by improper use, including batoning with or throwing the knife, using the blades as a can opener, chisel, pry bar, screwdriver, digging tool, or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed.

Here's the Kabar example. There are a number of forum users who have expressed that some Kabar models are excellent for some of these purposes: including batoning with or throwing the knife, using the blades as a can opener, chisel, pry bar, screwdriver, digging tool, or for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed.
Click to expand...

This is an odd one IMHO considering how they market many of their blades. Quoted directly from the company site is: "Hard Core Lives. Hard Core Knives." Sort of gives one a feeling of being designed for "Hard Core" use. Choosing a typical model from the site which represents (IMO) a standard type of "Hard Core" large outdoor blade, the BK7 (I didn't use the BK2 as it's an extreme example), reveals this description: "The ultimate BK&T all-purpose utility knife was designed specifically for soldiers and adventurers requiring a sturdy but lightweight combat knife that can stand up to hard use." At this point, one is left to determine what Kabar means by "Hard Core" and "Hard Use". Maybe they mean chopping, heavy material cutting, etc. That's fair, but to be honest, it leaves the buyer guessing what, other than basic cutting tasks, the knife is designed to do and what this part of the warranty disclaimer means: "for any heavy work for which the knife was not designed." I'd argue the average person would, right or wrong, think a soldiers "Hard Core" use to involve light prying, as to open a crate, and digging in dirt, as these are common war movie and war story uses.

Now, understand I'm aware Kabar has a solid reputation for warranty work and many of these knives a fully capable of the use the company warns against. I'm not knocking Kabars at all, just responding to the example of their stated warranty. If following the warranty as given by the company, I would expect their knives to only be capable of the simple cutting chores for which most here use a Mora. Take care.
 
I don't care one bit. I'm one of the few that thinks a knife company should warranty against defects and that's it. If I break a knife I'm not going to send it back for warranty replacement for two reasons:

A) The knife can't take what I want to use the knife for so what's the point of a replacement? So I can have a safe queen? I'm not going to use the knife again so I see no point.

B) I refuse to make someone else pay for my stupidity.

To answer your question specifically, yes I think it has to do with armchair survivalists. The people that see nutnfancy or someone on youtube splitting a 10 inch round log with a knife and figure that's the best way to do it because that's how so and so does it. Then they break stuff. I'm sure there's a large population who drank there own pee because Grylls said you should. Monkey see monkey do.:rolleyes:
 
They have to draw the line somewhere. There are always those that take advantage... in every aspect of life.
 
ESEE doesnt have the no questions asked warranty for the LM since Rowen doesnt make it, same thing with the Zancudo
 
I have not seen any remarkable difference in warranties. Some things go without saying though. If you have a knife that is specifically designed for cutting stuff and nothing more, that usually means that it won't cut the roof off of a car, or chop a tree down, or work as a shovel, hammer, or screwdriver. I'm going to go ahead and say this because many may be thinking it already.

There are a ton of really stupid people out there, they have money and they buy knives with that money. So, just because someone owns a knife doesn't necessarily mean that they are automatically able to use and care for that knife as expected/necessary. Some of the things I've seen people do with knives in the past have almost made me lose my faith in the human race completely. But, there is always that group that holds on and refuses to ignore that common sense. I salute those individuals.
 
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I don't disagree at all with you guys. We had a thread a while back about warranties and marketing. That's my issue. Don't say "This hard core knife is the ultimate zombie apocalypse do-it-all hard use special operations/sniper digi-cam tool to fulfill all survival chores..." then add " *disclaimer: knife to be used for simple cutting chores only. OK for opening MRE packaging, but cutting the case/cardboard box would constitute abuse.." Of course, that's an exaggeration, but you get the point. If you make a 2.5 pound chopper, don't be surprised when folks treat it like a axe. If you make a 1/4" thick belt knife, don't get offended when they use it for more than slicing salami. Some people do seem a wee bit overzealous in thier knife use, but more than a few companies are catering to and banking big time off of this niche. If you market a product as "Hard Use", you'd better have a realistic understanding of what the GENERAL POPULATION believes that term to mean. If a 7", 3/16" knife blade isn't for batonning and chopping, what's it for?
 
Shotgun said:
I don't care one bit. I'm one of the few that thinks a knife company should warranty against defects and that's it. If I break a knife I'm not going to send it back for warranty replacement for two reasons:

A) The knife can't take what I want to use the knife for so what's the point of a replacement? So I can have a safe queen? I'm not going to use the knife again so I see no point.

B) I refuse to make someone else pay for my stupidity.

To answer your question specifically, yes I think it has to do with armchair survivalists. The people that see nutnfancy or someone on youtube splitting a 10 inch round log with a knife and figure that's the best way to do it because that's how so and so does it. Then they break stuff. I'm sure there's a large population who drank there own pee because Grylls said you should. Monkey see monkey do.:rolleyes:
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^^^ Yes, this. ^^^

That being said: One persons use is another persons abuse. This is me. I baton regularly with my blades. I do not consider that abuse, that is my use. I also just found out that i work with a guy that proved "my reason for batoning" is a sound one. We just had this discussion the other night at work, which is when he shared his thoughts on what happened to him. Not everyone is someone who can split a gnats hair with an axe or hatchet. He thought he was pretty proficient with an axe, as he has used one on and off all his life. He missed and it glanced off the log while they were camping. It hit his foot dead on the front. Went through his sneaker, between his big toe & the next one, split his foot about 2" in. Took him a year to recover & it will never be the same. Alcohol was NOT involved. He also thinks that placing a razor sharp blade exactly where you want it & batoning it through is much safer than swinging a razor sharp object ---unless you do it everyday & are VERY proficient with it.

If it was a wicked hard & knotted up piece of wood that i broke one on, then i would not expect a company to replace it. If it was soft, un-knotted pine though, then yes, i would expect a replacement, as long as it was a big stout knife that was reasonably capable of the task at hand.
 
jdk1 said:
I don't disagree at all with you guys. We had a thread a while back about warranties and marketing. That's my issue. Don't say "This hard core knife is the ultimate zombie apocalypse do-it-all hard use special operations/sniper digi-cam tool to fulfill all survival chores..." then add " *disclaimer: knife to be used for simple cutting chores only. OK for opening MRE packaging, but cutting the case/cardboard box would constitute abuse.." Of course, that's an exaggeration, but you get the point. If you make a 2.5 pound chopper, don't be surprised when folks treat it like a axe. If you make a 1/4" thick belt knife, don't get offended when they use it for more than slicing salami. Some people do seem a wee bit overzealous in thier knife use, but more than a few companies are catering to and banking big time off of this niche. If you market a product as "Hard Use", you'd better have a realistic understanding of what the GENERAL POPULATION believes that term to mean. If a 7", 3/16" knife blade isn't for batonning and chopping, what's it for?
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I understand that you get it; but there's more to it than that.
While some companies offer specific products, or even an entire line, that may be designed for such great use, that doesn't mean every knife they make is suited for those purposes. A warranty is a generalized, encompassing statement for how a company deals with defective product - it doesn't differentiate between the 7" long, 1/4" thick, knife showcased as the do-it-all-knife-to-depend-on-when-your-life-depends-on-it-knife vs the gentleman's slimline, 2.5" folder because-suit-wearing-businessmen-are-real-men-too-knife. It seems the general public isn't smart enough to make those distinctions, either; so the companies have to protect themselves by making additional disclaimers/stipulations. After all, we know darn well that the guy that smashes the spine of his brand new $200 folder (full force against the kitchen counter, 15-20 times) is going to be looking for a free replacement...even though he made a video of himself doing it.
 
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