Warranty question.

P. McKinley

P. McKinley

Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
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Like many makers, I warranty my knives/sheaths and offer a full refund if not completely satisfied. However, I display my work for sale in several different retail locations. These businesses typically require a 25-35% consignment agreement.

So, should my warranty/refund policy cover that additional consignment amount? Or, should I just accept this as "the way business is done" and take the hit either on the front end or the back end of the sale?

What do other makers do? I'd like to know.

Thanks,

Peter
 
The "Complete Refund if not completely satisfied" should be a specific time such as 3 day inspection. This should be agreed upon with your retail outlets and they should hold the money until the inspection time lapses.

After the inspection time the customer owns the knife. Your warranty should cover to repair the knife or replace it if needed if manufacture failure is the cause of the problem. If the knife was abused then no warranty is given.
 
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This is my return policy and knife info.
All knives are sold with an unconditional three day return privilege to give purchasers the opportunity to reassure themselves of the condition and mechanical function of the knife purchased. Purchase price, less shipping costs, will be refunded upon receipt of the knife in the same condition it was shipped to the purchaser. Three days after the buyer receives the knife, all sales are final.


I guarantee my work to be free from mechanical defects as long as I remain able to make knives. This does not include natural handle materials such as stag, bone, wood, pearl and ivory, which may shrink, crack or discolor with change in temperature, humidity or age.
 
Thank you guys.

Chuck - That's pretty close to the wording of my warranty.

I was just curious as to how other makers deal with the added consignment fee as it pertains to a refund situation. A 35% addition to my sale price is a HUGE jump when it comes to a refund claim.
 
I'm obviously not selling, hence not offering a warranty, but as a potential customer I'd be less than thrilled with the exclusions of the warranty. If you made the handle, regardless of what material you used, I'd expect you to stand behind it. Falling back on excuses about expanding due to weather isn't something a customer wants to be worried about. What control does the customer have over the weather? No more than you. Why should they bear the responsibility for your choice of a material that expands due to the weather? You could stabilize the wood/antler to keep it from shrinking/cracking. I doubt ivory would, so why the exclusion there?
 
tryppyr said:
I'm obviously not selling, hence not offering a warranty, but as a potential customer I'd be less than thrilled with the exclusions of the warranty. If you made the handle, regardless of what material you used, I'd expect you to stand behind it. Falling back on excuses about expanding due to weather isn't something a customer wants to be worried about. What control does the customer have over the weather? No more than you. Why should they bear the responsibility for your choice of a material that expands due to the weather? You could stabilize the wood/antler to keep it from shrinking/cracking. I doubt ivory would, so why the exclusion there?
Click to expand...

That type of reasoning is why I use almost exclusively synthetic handle materials.



To get back on subject I think this is a complicated situation or it could be. I agree with a one week inspection period, at that point something could be worked out between the store and you on the refund.


And yes, I back all of my work 100%.
 
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Warrenty your craftsmanship, just dont warrenty "stupid"..
Consignment is tricky, not sure what to tell you there..
 
I'm in favor of the inspection period. At some point a customer has to take ownership of the knife. That includes taking responsibility for its proper use and care. I cover flaws in materials and craftsmanship - that doesn't include opening car doors with a hunting knife, storing a wet, dirty O1 blade in a leather sheath, or leaving a fine piece of walnut or maple in a dry hot room for six months and complaining that it cracked. For this and other reasons, I work mostly with tough, corrosion-resistant alloys and synthetic handle materials. It's only fair to say that all my clients to date who've bought or ordered carbon steel, unstabilized wood and so forth know what they're getting, and how to take care of it.

tryppyr said:
Falling back on excuses about expanding due to weather isn't something a customer wants to be worried about.
Click to expand...

Then they should order G10 handles, stainless steel and a kydex sheath. Seriously. Sorry, natural material can shrink and swell, sometimes after many years of trouble-free use or storage.
 
I do my best to use materials that are seasoned and take care not to get them hot while grinding. But sometimes with climate change things happen. A little shrinkage between bolsters can happen, especially if I send a knife to someone in the southwest where the humidity is pretty low.

I stand behind my work and if the knife is a custom order I do my best to inform the client about the best handle material for their application. I replaced the bakelite scales on a folder because the 100+ yr old material cracked on one side, I only charged for my time and not the material.

James is correct when he says that "natural material can shrink and swell, sometimes after many years of trouble-free use or storage". About 4 yrs at the NY custom knife show a dealer had about 15 ivory handled Randalls all with scrimshaw. They were fine Friday but by Sat morning everyone had cracked because of the AC in the show room. $30K worth of damage that he had to absorb.

For me 25-35% consignment fee sounds a little steep. When a dealer purchases a knife I give them 25%. If they take it on consignment they usually get 20%. If the dealer sells the knife he waits till the client has received the knife, is happy and the deal is done. Then I get paid. They take care all of the business including giving refunds if the client decides the knife is not for them. Part of the reason they get their percentage is so you don't have to deal with the business side of knife making, you just have to concentrate on making knives.
 
I think we are getting away from the question asked.

The OP wanted to know how makers who sell through purveyors handle returns.

In my experience, the seller, which is the retail purveyor, has the responsibility to handle all returns during the return period. After that, the warranty repair and replacement in your guarantee is your responsibility.

So, if the customer brings back the knife for a refund within the traditional ( and legally required) 72 hours, he gets his refund from the seller, and you either get no payment, or if you have been paid already, you get a charge-back ( that means you owe the retailer the amount he paid you). This would be only for your part of the sale ( 65-75%). He has no right or reason to keep his profit on a knife that was not a final sale.

After the return period, The sale is final. A cash refund would not be an option after the 72 hour return period.
If the person brings the knife back to the seller for repair or warranty, the seller will either give your contact info to the owner, or pass the knife on to you for repair/replacement. This would be your responsibility.

This is the standard arrangement with consignment sales in the business community.
 
Stacy nailed it.

Refunds are handled by the seller.

If you are not the seller, you don't refund money.
Or you just refund the portion the seller paid you.


tryppyr said:
What control does the customer have over the weather? No more than you. Why should they bear the responsibility for your choice of a material that expands due to the weather?
Click to expand...
Wallet control.
We all decide what to spend or not spend our money on.
 
I appreciate Stacy, Chuck, Brian, et al's input regarding dealer/consignment relationships. I imagine the OP does, too.

As for warrantees... sorry to flog a dead horse... but what do y'all suppose GM would say if I drove a new Camaro out into the woods on old logging trails and broke it? How about if it was a 20-year-old Camaro? Would I get a new car, no questions asked?

:rolleyes:
 
Understood, but lets compare apples to apples. A knife isn't a car. It usually has one moving part at the max. Most makers warranty the blade for "Materials and Manufacturing" for life. Normal wear and abuse isn't covered, but many makers have a "No Questions Asked" policy. If the owner cares enough to bring it back broken, and asks for it to be repaired, they repair or replace it. Sure, there is a jerk out there who will try and pry a door open with your knife and then say, "I don't know what happened? I was cutting a fuzz stick and the blade just broke in my hand."

The other non-comparison point is that GM has reviews by millions of users and hundreds of testing and rating agencies. But in the knife community, the makers word and that of a hand full of customers is all there is to back the warranty. You should try and make the warranty express your confidence in the quality of the knives yo make.

I have replaced exactly two knives that broke in use. One was clearly broken prying, and the owner told me so. The other had the handle destroyed in a dish washer. They did agree that, "Maybe it went through the dish washer?". I replaced both at no charge. Both customers have bought more knives from me since. I consider the fraction of 1% of customers who might take advantage of my warranty not worth jeopardizing the 99.9% who are my valued customers.

In word of mouth advertising, your reputation as a good craftsman and businessman is all you have. I consider those two knives a cheap payment for my advertising budget.
 
Stacey, James, Brian, Chuck, et al - Thank you very much for your input.

This issue was brought up as a result of an inquiry by a customer. He purchased one of my knives about 1 1/2 months ago from a local art gallery that displays my work. Last week he brought the knife back to the gallery with a large chip missing from the butt-end of the maple burl hidden tang handle. The gallery immediately contacted me and I retrieved the piece the next day. To me, it is quite obvious that the customer used the butt end as a hammer - resulting in the chip. The customer wants his money back and is quite unwilling to accept a repair.

The gallery requires a 35% consignment fee(yes, 35% is steep, but they provide a service that is worth it to me). To accommodate this fee I drop my "normal" price by about 20% so the piece is not WAY overpriced. When the sale is made my warranty/no questions asked return policy goes into effect. However, the gallery keeps the sale dollars for 90 days before I get a check so I have yet to receive payment for the piece. That's not an issue as I'm quite able to make good on a refund... but I'm also quite unwilling to do so as the repair terms of my warranty were clearly(to me) voided by his hammering, and the return period is well past.

So, the customer wants his entire $785.00 returned(its a very nice knife!!).... which includes the addition of the consignment fee. I'm reluctant to make good on a full repayment because of the abuse, but I've offered to make the repair for free. The gallery wants a satisfied customer and has asked that I work this out with the customer.

Now, there are several issues here, but the one I'm concerned with at the moment is how the addition of consignment fees are handled in this type of situation. My gut tells me that, should I decide to do a refund, I'm obligated to cover the entire cost including the fee because that is my business and not the customer's.

What is the SOP for this situation?

Again, thanks all for your advice. I appreciate it!

Peter
 
First you need a caveat in your warranty regarding abuse and repair or replace at your discretion. Second if you have not received payment I feel the gallery needs to make good on the return, not you. Until they have paid you the transaction is not finished. if they do not operate thus way then I would find another gallery or purveyor.
 
Chuck - Here's my Warranty:

"Thank you for choosing a PJM custom knife.

I provide an unconditional, no questions asked, three day return policy during which you can become familiar with the knife and gain assurance that you have made the right purchase. Should you choose to return your knife I will refund the entire purchase price if returned in the same condition as purchased. Three days after you receive your knife the sale is final.

I make one-of-a-kind, custom knives & sheaths that, in some cases , may not be reparable if damaged. However, I guarantee the materials and craftsmanship of my work against defect for my lifetime. So, if it breaks or falls apart I'll fix it or I'll make a comparable replica. Approved warranty work will be performed as long as I am able to make knives.

If you use your knife as a pry bar, screwdriver, can opener, hammer, fire poker, etc, then all bets are off and this warranty is voided. This guarantee does not cover finishes, normal wear and tear, movement and checking of natural materials resulting from environmental changes, or damage caused by abuse or neglect to both the knife or sheath.

Your knife is guaranteed to rust if you store it in its sheath covered with grime and moisture. After use, wipe a light coat of oil on the clean, dry blade before putting it away. Do not put your custom knife in the dishwasher! Keep it sharp... and use it as a knife.... and it will provide many years of use and enjoyment.

Should you ever experience any difficulty with a PJM custom knife please contact me. I will make every effort to resolve the issue. "
 
Unfortunately this may turn into a bad situation. It seems you might have one of those very few customers who will try to take advantage of the situation. You can stand your ground as would be right, but then you will have a disgruntled customer spreading bad feedback. I would point out to the customer that it was obvious that the knife was used in an inappropriate manner. Then if he still insists on a refund you have to make the difficult choice. Do you want a happy customer, or do you want to be in the right.
 
The problem is that the seller isn't you. The seller is the gallery. If you OK it to them, they can refund the purchase, and you will have to return your part to them. In no way that makes sense can they expect to make $300 and not have sold the knife.

Plan A:
Talk to the gallery owner and make sure he understands that you will only return the amount they paid you to them. If they and you are good with it, have them do a refund, and return your amount to the owner. Other than that, insist on a repair. 45 days is beyond any reasonable return period.

Plan B:
Tell the gallery that if they are willing to refund the customer, you will rebuild the knife and give it back to them, at no charge ( but not return your part of the original sale). At this point they will be the new owner, and when they sell it all the money will be theirs. The customer is their's, not yours ( or he would have bought it from you for less).
 
Stacey - THANK YOU!!

I'm leaning more towards an option B-ish solution.

This is a tough spot for me. I'm new to this and don't want to make a bad move, especially in the small market of Cape Breton where everyone knows everyone.... or they're related.

The gallery has been very good for me for the past three years as they provide way more than just a venue for selling. They provide unparallelled public exposure and have been instrumental in my getting funding for grinder and forge purchases, and they're about to provide funding for a trip to Blade next year. I don't want to burn that bridge, or that of the purchaser.

I meet with the gallery today at 2:00. I'll update this thread.

Thanks again all.

Peter
 
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