Water Quench ?

G

gtrpicker

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Aug 3, 2005
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Im pretty new to Knifemaking and was wondering if I can use Water to quench a blade made out of 1065,1095,or 5160 on my knives ? as those are the steels Im using.
Ive heard that that is the way they did it all the time a long time ago.
 
You can use water if you like high pitched pinging noises and cracked unuseable blades. :D

But seriously, you should be using a quenching oil. Lots of recent posts on this topic. Just go back a few pages and read up.
 
"water quench" is really a salt brine quench

It would be appropriate for 1065 and 1095 - not 5160 the higher alloy content makes water speed unnecessary
BUT
Those specs were developed for industrial products of various shapes and sizes.
In the thin sections used in knives, it can be too fast.

Try it if you want' too, but you will have a high incidence of broken knives.


A fast oil, is fast enough, but has less tendency to break your blades.
Parks 50, Houghton K and others are appropriate.



If you want to use Canola oil for a home done quench, I would use it with 5160 instead of the other 2
 
I water quench my Japanese style blades and so far so good. By water I mean water straight out of the tap at 120℉ not brine. (we have well water)
I use W2.

The big things to not get broken blades are:

1.Clay coating. a light wash over the whole blade and coat the spine as if you're making a hamon.
2. Differential heating. Do not take the whole blade to austenitic, just the "edge" area and don't overheat. Stay just above critical, not the upper end.

And the 3rd would be an interrupted quench but I'm going to try uninterrupted.

I did crack a blade once in brine but it was too hot. Here's my thread. Scroll down and read Bill Burke's response.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/778052-First-cracked-blade.-(?

You will get a curve upwards in your blade though.

Works for me.
 
I wasnt talking about a brine water quench,just plain water.
So far it seems that some say if I do it I will crack everything and some say they are doing it.
Im just a bit confused.
I will sort it out though I think.
Thanks for the help in Advance.
 
To be clear yes you can.

Most of the smiths world wide thought history have. Outside of this country several still do Japanese smiths, Indonesian smiths, and Spanish smiths to name a few. My understanding in the 1800's it was one of the most common quenching mediums in this country.

A lot of the folks I hear of having problems with water quenching are using city water supply. Those with untreated water seem to not have as many issues.

Water quenching is like any other quench medium, in the fact that one must spend the time learning the particulars of untried quench medium. Maybe it is easier to follow the direction sheet on a commercial quench medium, than to spend the time to research and test on your own. Personally that is where it starts to get fun to me.
 
gtrpicker said:
Im pretty new to Knifemaking and was wondering if I can use Water to quench a blade made out of 1065,1095,or 5160 on my knives ? as those are the steels Im using.
Ive heard that that is the way they did it all the time a long time ago.
Click to expand...

The way they did it a long time ago involved very simple steels without all of the fun stuff they put in modern steel. Typically about 60 or so points carbon, often carburized wrought, or simple crucible melted steel. Modern steels are all sorts of different from the simple (what we would call medium carbon 10XX based on alloy composition but structurally alien to what you would buy from a tool steel supplier)

The closest you will get to the old steels is W1 and W2. You can quench those in water, there are people who will tell you that you can quench other steels in water or brine. Blades are thin enough that the physical transformation in a hypereutechtoid steel like 1095 combined with the uneven quench will stress blades into cracking.

-Page
 
Water has a bigger learning curve and a lot of folks dont want to take the time to learn it.Its a whole lot easier to use a fast quench oil.You'll loose a few blades to start but with practice and research the loses can be cut to nearly none...1065 is a good canidate for water quench..1095 is a lot trickier...Get even the smallest thing wrong and you'll fell the dreaded "ping" thru the tongs..Even with everything right you'll still loose a 1095 blade every now and again..Just the nature of the beast..
I personally use rain water when I water quench..I read a write up from Howard Clark on water quenching and it was a big help to me..I dont remember where it was at or i would post a link..
 
Water from different sources tends to have different chemistries. Theoretically, those differences could have an effect on the quench.

Altitude effects the boiling point. So, location could also have an effect.

For modern steels,... get some modern water. :) LOL
 
Good point. If you lower pressure enough, water will boil at room temperature.

Tai Goo said:
Water from different sources tends to have different chemistries. Theoretically, those differences could have an effect on the quench.

Altitude effects the boiling point. So, location could also have an effect.

For modern steels,... get some modern water. :) LOL
Click to expand...
 
There are many variables in water quenching, to many to list in a thread. But the water can not be dismissed. Both natural and man made variations exist in chemical composition. In most of Japan tap water is used. However the Japanese do not bleach or fluoride their water supply during treatment. In Europe fluoride is banned. Add bleach, fluoride and salt to your quench (the blades maybe brighter), but it dose have a impact.

One warning!!! Water is a gate way quench media, the use and experimentation leads to more. The next thing you know your behind on orders, life is in a downward spiral, and you are having fun!
Such a thing might lead to dare I say quenching in Canola Oil!!! the horror!:)
 
Jason Hawk said:
There are many variables in water quenching, to many to list in a thread. But the water can not be dismissed. Both natural and man made variations exist in chemical composition. In most of Japan tap water is used. However the Japanese do not bleach or fluoride their water supply during treatment. In Europe fluoride is banned. Add bleach, fluoride and salt to your quench (the blades maybe brighter), but it dose have a impact.

One warning!!! Water is a gate way quench media, the use and experimentation leads to more. The next thing you know your behind on orders, life is in a downward spiral, and you are having fun!
Such a thing might lead to dare I say quenching in Canola Oil!!! the horror!:)
Click to expand...

really? how much of a difference have you noticed in how many blades ? What was the difference?
 
I use water occasionally. It makes perfect sense for some stuff. I use Brassica-C100 for most stuff though...
 
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A couple nice things about water are, the price and you don't have to worry about it catching fire. :)
 
I've quenched in water with success, too. All I can say is when you break a blade that's an expensive custom order in it, that you already have 5-6 hours into, it will either make you momentarily catatonic, or destructive of your immediate environment, or both.

Clay has a similar effect to the salt content in brine, when quenching in plain water - it breaks up the vapor jacket evenly, preventing uneven cooling that may warp or crack your blade.

It's important not to go into a water quench with deep scratches on your blade, especially nothing perpendicular to the edge.
 
I have worked with one of the most recognized names in the industry. He has used water for ever. The water should be plain, brackish, and up to warm temp. The clay wash is critical. Done perfectly, it (mostly) defeats the vopor jacket. The difference it makes is astounding. You will probably have to experiment with your clay wash quite a bit before you get good results.
 
SShepherd, the clay acts as an insulator more when it's in a thick layer.

"What happens is that the blade cools more rapidly with the thin clay coating. This is because the clay creates a larger surface area over the metal. It also prevents bubbles, which could become tiny insulators, from forming and remaining on the blade after quenching- these would leave visible spots of unhardened steel in the hamon." - From "The Craft of the Japanese Sword", Yoshindo Yoshihara.

A thin clay coating can be used to improve your quench in water, for many steels and regardless of whether a thicker layer is applied for hamon formation. I should have made myself more clear in my first post.
 
Salem is correct. A clay wash ( thin coat) is a method of greatly increasing the surface area of the steel. The tiny granules of clay are like the surface of sandpaper if you look under a microscope. They allow much more heat to be transfered to the quenchant and do it more evenly. A thin clay wash will speed up the cooling rate. The proper use of this technique is the foundation of yaki-ire..or Japanese quenching.

A thicker layer of clay will retard the cooling rate, and allow the spine to become pearlite while the edge quickly cools to martensite. Controlling the clay placement and thickness is a trial and error thing, and one must ruin a few blades to get it right.

The type of water used is often listed as rainwater, because it is consistently soft water, and makes a quicker collapse of the vapor jacket. Water from the ground and tap can be hard or soft, depending on where you live. Many quench formulae have a teaspoon of water softener ( jet dry, etc.) added to make the water soft.
 
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