Water Quench ?

Salem Straub said:
SShepherd, the clay acts as an insulator more when it's in a thick layer.

"What happens is that the blade cools more rapidly with the thin clay coating. This is because the clay creates a larger surface area over the metal. It also prevents bubbles, which could become tiny insulators, from forming and remaining on the blade after quenching- these would leave visible spots of unhardened steel in the hamon." - From "The Craft of the Japanese Sword", Yoshindo Yoshihara.

A thin clay coating can be used to improve your quench in water, for many steels and regardless of whether a thicker layer is applied for hamon formation. I should have made myself more clear in my first post.
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i hate it when that happens :)
 
stacy, I've used all kinds of water; well, rain, dirty slack tub, and hven't seen a bit of difference
 
i primarily use 5160 steel also and i have never tried water for 5160 because i have heard it can crack. used motor oil is perfect for 5160 i also used oil for 1095 also but yo can used water for 1095.
 
SShepherd said:
stacy, I've used all kinds of water; well, rain, dirty slack tub, and hven't seen a bit of difference
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I agree.
I was mainly responding to the statement that some water is different than others. Used properly, it won't really matter.
 
My friend, you just learned a central lesson of bladesmithing, if not also of fourms. There are many, many, "right ways" and many ways from which "you can't deviate."
What this means is that these people care about their work, and they have worked very hard to find a method that works for them, with their tools, and their abilities, and their outcome criteria.

I use BOTH WATER AND PARKS. I quench for 3 secs in 120F (hot tap) water, then immediately remove and put into room temp Parks 50. I do this with W2, w1, 1095, and low manganese 1075. I don't ever do any long blades with anything but w2 or low Mang 1075, cable or damascus. I make pattern welded blades and san mai blades with w2, low mang 1075, 15n20 and Extra-improved plow steel wire rope (after heating and welding and folding some this steel is almost just like low mang 1075 in chemical comp). All of these blades are heat treated with clay, though. Like they said, a wash of about 1 granule of satanite thick over the whole blade, about 1/10" thick over the part of blade to stay soft, and a lot of little lines going from the thicker area down to the edge. This helps to reduce the stresses, but the real reason is once you learn to polish simple steels treated in water with clay, they are BEAUTIFUL. Admittedly, Nick Wheeler gets as much or more beauty from clay with Parks, but he is a polisher extraordinaire! I am a mortal polisher (and with my methods, in my shop, with my skills, the interrupted quench works best).

The interrupt gets the fast initial cooling of water but slows down with oil at the time that is most stressful for the steel. Works for me. Not required, just what I have learned to do over the last few years. Yes, if I don't get the heat even and just at the right temp (it seems not to matter if I heat the whole thing or just the edge to temp), then TINK. No blade... or shorter blade. Also, you should leave the edge thicker than you would with just an oil quench, and the longer the blade, the thicker the edge due to the blade tip rising (positive sori in Japanese sword terms).



Canola for sure for 5160. Even Parks is risking it with that steel. No doubt about that, for me.

hope this helps. Think of the difference of techniques as part of the fun. We all care, we all want to help, and we have all learned a way that works. You get to learn a way that works for you, too. IF it was just following directions, it would be boring as hell.

kc
 
Kevin, I have used the water to Parks50 method too but I found that it reduced sori, in fact once I must've made the transition too quickly and got a negative sori. Do you find this method as you do it keeps the blade from producing sori? I know that part of the equation is geometry but I was curious if your system keeps the blade in the prequench shape in terms of sori.
 
I get some sori, but not as much as total water. I may be holding closer to 4 secs. Also, make certain the spine is clayed for max sori, if the spine is not clayed, there will be some shallow hardening there, and that will reduce sori. I always get a little positive sori. I pre-bend anything like a wak or a willow-leaf dao because it isn't enough for the blade shape without a little help. For goose-quill dao, which are straight until the point of percussion, and then curve, it works almost just right.

kc
 
I switched all water quenches to Parks 50 and forge in the sori. Much less "PING" problems......and the sori is usually what you want.
 
Stacy - I surely understand why you switched from water to fast oil. I am holding with an interrupted quench, but I lose one every now and then. I got a new forge, and I lost 3 in a row. Since, I have had a streak of about 6 or 7 go well, including a couple of double quenches to get better hamons. But, being able to forge the sori and KNOW about what you will get sure is cool (and if you can polish like Nick the oil gives as much hamon).

Not at all arguing against anyone. Just many styles. I think that is a GOOD thing.

kc
 
Sori is the upward curvature of a sword - think of the shape of a katana.
It is caused by the expansion of the martensitic edge (ha) making the edge longer, while the already fromed pearlite in the spine (mune) stays the same.
This transformation takes place in a water quench ( yaki-ire), as even the fastest oils will not drop the temp fast enough to lock the spine.
 
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