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Waterstone heresy

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by cap'njake, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. cap'njake

    cap'njake

    206
    Aug 15, 2016
    I understand why not put oil on a waterstone. But what about on waterstones that don't absorb water like shapton pro stones. Would some honing oil hurt at all on a shapton pro?
     
  2. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    You can totally use oil with water stones. It runs against tradition, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. :)
     
  3. hein31

    hein31

    24
    Mar 1, 2016
    Waterstones are technically defined in consistency and hardness for use with water. You would technically not damage the stone, but it will forever be ruined, because it will feel dull and ineffective. Waterstones are defined to have a reasonable refresh rate of the abrasive grit if you use them with water. If you use them with oil, they don't release fresh abrasive at all. And since Shapton pro are magnesia bonded you will dissolve the magnesia bond if you try to cook the oil out of the stone with aggressive soaps, acids or solvents. The only chance to repair a mushy soft spot with oil is to flatten them down a millimeter or more and hope to find a dry part of the stone underneath the oily spot. If you soak it in oil, it is slow as hell, ineffective and the only chance to keep the limited effectiveness is to regularly refresh the surface with a diamond plate. A waste of time and material.

    If you want to experiment with waterstones and oil, try a resin bonded stone, for example a reasonably cheap King 6000. The grid is high enough to limit the absorption and you have a chance to carefully wash it with warm soapy water to solve the oil and convert it back to an effective waterstone.

    The only "waterstone" that i know of, that was explicitly designed with a resin bond for use with water OR oil ist the Tyrolit 89A SUPER 1200 grit (1200 FEPA with water). If you use that with oil it is defined as FEPA 1500 but still effective. Other traditional hard european stones can be used with water or oil, wether you like the feel and the effective grit is up to you.

    Other "waterstones" that are often used with oil are the TAIDEAs and comparable chinese stones. But that doesn't change the limitations of these types of stones.
     
  4. Beansandcarrots

    Beansandcarrots KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    415
    Apr 15, 2014
    I wouldn't recommend it. The binders in magnesia-based stones are water solluble. I suspect you will have difficulty getting your stone to refresh itself as a waterstone should. Having never tried it myself, however, this is merely speculation. Godspeed, my good man
     
  5. cap'njake

    cap'njake

    206
    Aug 15, 2016
    Well I figured it would work with shapton pro stones since it doesn't absorb anything. But I was concerned about any negative effects oil might have on the stone. The reason for my concern is I want to use shapton stones to sharpen some hair clipper blades. I don't really want water on the blades because I don't want to encourage any rust. I might be over thinking it some. But I figure why not access the enormous wealth of information and experience here on bladeforum
     
  6. cbwx34

    cbwx34

    Dec 27, 2004
    There was a lady in another forum a few years back... who got a drop of oil on what I'm pretty sure was a Shapton Pro. She said even though she immediately tried to clean it, including lapping... the oil soaked in, and basically "killed" that spot on the stone.

    So, take that (and my sometimes incorrect memory haha)... FWIW.
     
    Chris "Anagarika" likes this.
  7. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    I would not do it under any circumstances. The best thing that can happen when doing it to a ceramic stone is you'll be able to bake the stone at high temp to get the oil back out. A resinoid stone will be dead, boiling isn't hot enough to get the oil out.

    A ceramic stone will load up, resin stone will make a creamy mud - both will stink out loud compared to using with water.

    Previous conversation on the topic.
    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/two-general-questions.1388659/
     
    stitchawl and Chris "Anagarika" like this.
  8. jc57

    jc57 Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 28, 2012
    I use oil on oil stones, and water on water stones. I run ceramic and diamonds dry. I have occasionally used water on diamond plates but didn't see any benefit for what I was doing.

    I would use my Shapton Pros dry before I would let oil near them.
     
    HeavyHanded likes this.
  9. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Just some food for thought. If you're at all worried, stick with what the manufacturer recommends. If you don't mind taking risks, give it a go. It may very well work fine.

     
  10. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    From the earlier thread I linked:

    I welcome the video where someone uses oil on one 4k King stone and water on another right next to it and, doesn't finish with "...and that's why its called a waterstone".

    You'll note there is no long term use follow-up to this video. Try if you cannot resist but is a bad path to take - this from personal experience.

     
    Chris "Anagarika" likes this.
  11. adamlau

    adamlau

    Oct 13, 2002
    I would go with soapy water before oil on a waterstone.
     
  12. tiguy7

    tiguy7 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    After you sharpen your clipper blades on a water stone, rinse in alcohol. Water and alcohol are miscible in all proportions. Then apply the usual clipper oil. Make sure your clipper blades are oil free before starting. Rinse them in say alcohol.
     
  13. cap'njake

    cap'njake

    206
    Aug 15, 2016
    Great tip never thought about that. Thanks. Solves my problem lol. I really didn't want to risk ruining my shaptons
     
    bucketstove likes this.
  14. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    That IS a good tip! Sounds like good practice for woodworking tools as well.
     
  15. ^^This.

    Alcohol will completely carry away any leftover moisture; and when it dries (in a few seconds, usually), it'll be completely dry. Then oil as needed. It's usually what I've done after washing non-stainless knives (mostly folders) in dish soap & water. Let it flow through every nook & cranny.

    I use 91% IPA for this; the 70% stuff will work also, and may be less of a risk for some plastics sensitive to alcohol or other solvents (such as the plastic handles on Victorinox's Swiss Army Knives).


    David
     
  16. tiguy7

    tiguy7 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    IMG_2670.jpg I have a question for waterstone nuts. How do you dress a 220 grit Shapton stone? They say the diamond dresser will leave the 220 too smooth. I have a Silicon Carbide slotted brick. Would that be any better?
     
  17. jc57

    jc57 Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 28, 2012
    Shapton only recommends their diamond flattening plate for 500-grit and above stones.

    They recommend using their coarse lapping powder (which is a SiC grit) on a cast iron lapping plate for the coarser stones. So from what you have there, I would use that slotted SiC plate on your 220.

    Personally I use an Atoma 140 diamond plate for flattening everything. The coarsest Shapton product I have is the Shapton Pro 320 and the Atoma 140 works fine with that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  18. tiguy7

    tiguy7 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    I think I found a place to get the Cast Iron lapping plate and the coarse powder. When you use the diamond lapping plate or the slotted brick, they recommend putting the plate underneath probably so that the swarf will fall into the slots. When you use the powder, do want the slotted thing on top so that the powder does not disappear into the slots?
     
  19. adamlau

    adamlau

    Oct 13, 2002
    Use a smooth faced cast iron lapping plate. No need for a grooved product. If using a grooved lapping plate, apply powder directly to the plate, or moisten and apply SiC powder directly to the stone, even out the distribution of powder and go.
     
  20. jc57

    jc57 Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 28, 2012

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