we want the truth,we CAN handle the truth

WOW Cougar you have a lot of time to write
smile.gif


I am heading off to trivia so i must be brief.

My plans are now this; I will do the same tests with the new ATAK and post the results in the same charts just below the original tested ATAK. I will make it clear which ATAK is which.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

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Hmmmm . . . Seems I managed to start a whole sub-thread on censorship. Apology accepted. I have also been annoyed by the same things others here have been annoyed by, but the post in question had gone from an expression of annoyance to an accusation of dishonesty, with a potential for yet another Mistrial by Internet.

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing vorpal blades, and every single one of them is right!" [apologies to Kipling]




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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I don't want to be anal about this but...in regards to the post below, I think a few clarifications need to be made.

First of all, scientific data is "suppressed" all the time. In fact, it's the norm. There are several reasons for this.

The number one reason is that precious little gets published unless you can show statistically significant results. For instance, if I tested oreos and chip's ahoy cookies in terms of weight gain, if there was no difference, nobody would be interested. But IF I showed that that the same caloric intake of oreos resulted in statistically significant wt gain compared to the same caloric intake of chip's ahoy, that would be publishable. Thus, the norm is to suppress nonsignificant results.

From a scientific point of view -- given the process -- if there is no valid, statistical difference between two knives, no one would care. Those results would never get past peer review UNLESS somehow you could make a compelling case for their importance. This CAN be done but infrequently.

Why is this the case? Publishing scientific information is expensive. So cost is one factor. Also, scientific information grows at an exponential rate. So usually only the most thoroughly tested significant results get published. Scientists don't have time to waste reading papers on tests that show nothing.

This might not be the BEST way to do things but this is how it is done in realiity.

Also, even many (most?) statistically significant results can, for all practical purposes, be meaningless. Therefore, there is a lot of science that gets published that has little practical significance. Calcium lowers blood pressure? By one psi. Detected because the sample size was 1000 participants in each each test group.

One knife cuts through nails better than another? Is this significant? Depends on how you plan on using the knife.

I kind of agree with the spirit of the post below but not necessarily the mechanics.

Hoodoo


>The vital principle is a scientist does not suppress data, no matter how clear he
thinks it is that data doesn't mean anything. Why not? Because it's not for him to
judge, all by himself with no peer review. A scientist is not afraid to publish data he
believes to be invalid and explain why it's invalid and trust other scientists to
understand that, or prove he's wrong about it. When everything is out in the open
and everybody has a chance to assess the results of experiments and discuss what
they mean, the truth emerges -- the scientific community is the free marketplace of ideas. (Ideally, anyway ... of course in the real world scientists are human beings
etc. etc., but that's the way it's supposed to be.)


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Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe
 
Hoodoo is absolutely right -- in the real world data gets suppressed all the time, for each of the reasons I mentioned, and also a great deal of data doesn't get published because no scientific journal wants to publish it.

I disagree violently with the idea that if an experiment shows two knives are indistinguishable in performance that isn't worth posting, though. For instance I think Steve Harvey's experiments showing no detectable difference in edgeholding between several premium steels are extremely valuable (and I wish you would post them on the web somewhere, Harv, they're too valuable to lie buried in old posts on a forum).

That data is bound to save people from wasting money or compromising other performance characteristics to buy a knife made with a steel they believe to be better at edgeholding, when it isn't.

Another point: it's data that's sacred ... conclusions are less so. If Mike were to leave the first ATAK results out of his conclusion, leave them out of any comparison chart at the end of the report, for instance, that would not be a heinous crime punishable by the Death of a Thousand Cuts.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
There are three basic ways to "publish" in the scientific community. The first and least formal is to present your results to those who work in your lab. You do this to get feedback on both method and analysis. Once this is done you can present this at a conference. Finally you can send it to a journal.

The main reason that the journals exist is to allow the huge amount of data to be streamlined enough so that it can be printed for sensible costs and in a reasonable amount of time. The knife community does not have this huge amount of data flowing through it at this time and I would strongly suggest that people continue to post results as if they were discussing it with people in their lab so to speak.

Now in the future, if the membership is up to 100 K, and the review forum is getting hundreds of reviews a day they they should start to be streamlined so as to optomize content. However that is a ways off.

-Cliff
 
Cliff and Cougar,

I agree 100%. Actually one of the problems with the fact that nonsignificant results usually don't get published in scientific journals is that you could easily be doing experiments that have already been done before and were found futile. So it would be nice to be able to know what's been done and what DOESN'T work. But what is nice and what is reality are two different things.

One of the best ways of knowing what has been done but not published is to hobnob. Scientists do this a lot at scientific meetings. This is where I developed my taste for single malt scotch.
smile.gif
And BladeForums is a great place to hobnob and share information (good or bad).

Anyway, I applaud the dissemination of all data. My only point was that in real-world science, it just doesn't happen. The analogy presented really doesn't holdup although it would be nice if it somehow could.

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Hoodoo

Doubt grows with knowledge.
--Goethe


[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 20 November 1999).]
 
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