Weapon Or Tool ?????

Interesting thread. I think most of it boils down to either very bad luck.., or simply good judgement. Law Enforcement folks don't run around asking everyone if they have a potential weapon, so if you do get asked.., it's fairly likely you've done something that already got their attention.

I have a number of friends in Law Enforcement, and actually two that are close friends. We've discussed this stuff many times before, and when they've rousted folks and confiscated knives, it was always connected to some other charge, not simply hassling people about what was in their pocket.

Also.., I would certainly not LIE! Huge mistake! If you are packing something you know is illegal..., simply be totally polite.., tell them where the knife is.., and maybe the worst thing that happens will be a knife gone Bye-Bye.

Originally posted by akjon
2) Always remember that one permissible response to the weapons question, at least in the US, is some polite variation on "I decline to answer your questions at this time." Under my understanding of the law, this constitutionally protected response should not by itself give an officer cause to search you or your vehicle.
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Sorry :(.., but there's one I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole unless I'd be going down on a "Three-Strikes" type conviction, or was carrying 2 Mac-10's, a 4" auto, and hand grenades....lol.

There is not much that makes a LEO want to find a way to arrest you more than playing "Junior Attorney" after he/she asks a simple question related to Officer safety. No matter how polite you are.., it comes off as defiant, and is also a subtle nudge towards "Probable Cause", which they may already have if you've been stopped while drinking, or for something else that got police attention. Also keep in mind that they probably know more about what they can or can not do involving search than you do, and the instant you refuse to answer a question, you are going for a ride!

My experience has been that respectful cooperative citizens who have broken no other law, generally "walk".., after an informative lecture about what's OK to carry, and what's not, and you will lose your knife. ~~~> Far better than other possible outcomes! :(

I certainly understand folks wanting to stick up for their rights, and not feel like they are being bullied by Law Enforcement, but if you think about it :rolleyes:......what's going to happen if you are:

(a) Pulled over by an Officer for this or that....

(b) Asked if you are carrying a weapon...

(c) You answer (politely)..."Well.., as I understand it Sir, I don't have to answer that question at this time."

The Officer will say..., "Yes.., you are correct Sir.., please step out of your car slowly with your hands in plain sight, and place your empty hands on the roof of your vehicle palms open wide, and spread your legs. You have the right to remain silent..blah..blah...blah." And off you go! :(

If anyone thinks that sighting some "Constitutional Rights" will result in ~~> "Oh Ok Sir.., you don't want to tell us if you have a weapon.., sorry for bothering you, have a nice evening." <~~~ Think again....????

Your car will be towed and impounded since you have refused to cooperate with Law Enforcement "Field Safety Interrogation".., and before they even get the paperwork done to search you at the Police Station, you already owe your City/County $250-$400 simply to cover towing and impoundment fees. Good choice!

FYI..., you have now forced a totally litigatory situation, so hopefully you have a hefty savings account!

At this point.., you have set up a stand-off, pissed off a LEO.., and God help you if you actually broke some law.., are bio-chemically eligible for a DUI, and/or actually have something like a Microtech OTF stuffed in your jeans. The Officer you were engaged by, will also not have much nice stuff to say to whoever handles the prosecution for the DA's office. <~~ Not ideal either!

If you do have something not "Kosher" in your locale, you'll no doubt be charged with anything they think will stick, and you may have avoided the entire incident simply by saying...."No Sir.., I don't have any sort of weapon, just my everyday working knife. It is in my right front pocket and I believe it is legal." Even if it's not.., you are in better shape than repeating something you heard on "The Practice" that sounded pretty cool!

As I mentioned.., the Officers I know, have actually released people that were respectful and honest, and sometimes even returned their knife if it wasn't something "Rambo-Like"..., so I'd have to disagree with playing the slick para-legal role when you are approached and questioned by Local Law Enforecement.

Rule 1.., is simply making every effort to avoid this sort of confrontation if you regulary carry a questionable knife. Seems like a no-brainer to me?

As far as the arguments about a knife being a weapon or a tool..., they've been beat to death on here.., and a knife is obviously a "potential weapon".., whether we like it or not. Yes it's true that "Intent" will be a significant part of the DA's prosecutory strategy.., but why push it to that if not necessary???Arguing it here typing, is far different than watching your Attorney do it in front of a Judge, so we're back to "Rule 1".


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
It might be useful to point out that there are different kinds of searches that police officers can perform. They can "Terry" stop and frisk you for weapons, or they can do a more extensive search.

With a Terry stop and frisk, the officer doesn't need probable cause or your permission to search you. Frisking is specifically for the officer's safety and there are strict regulations regarding how and when a stop and frisk can occur.

A more extensive search usually (but not always) requires probable cause and/or a warrant or the consent of the person they want to search.

Making a Terry stop to pull over a car might be kind of a gray area. I think you can frisk a person after you pull them over, but it doesn't seem to be done often.

Some good info about searches: ARREST; PROBABLE CAUSE;
SEARCH WARRANTS and WARRANTLESS ARRESTS AND SEARCHES.
 
Buzzbait hit the nail on the head in my opinion............. anything and i mean anything, can be used as a weapon....... if that is a persons mind set. It would be nice if the 'liberals' would regognize this. Otherwise, let's start outlawing Fords, Buicks, Honda's, and the list goes on and on............ just my .02 worth.... :)
 
Originally posted by cerulean
They can "Terry" stop and frisk you for weapons, or they can do a more extensive search.

With a Terry stop and frisk, the officer doesn't need probable cause or your permission to search you. Frisking is specifically for the officer's safety and there are strict regulations regarding how and when a stop and frisk can occur.
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Agreed.., and thanks for the information!


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Originally posted by cerulean
With a Terry stop and frisk, the officer doesn't need probable cause...
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Hah?

Somebody educate me on how this isn't unreasonable and therefore unconstitutional search. Wouldn't it have to be connected to some sort of suspicion or misdemeanor, and thus have a defacto probable cause?

Thanks.
 
IMNSHO what people need to do here is separate procedural from legislative conjecture. If you dislike the procedures or laws you should lobby your Senators and Congressmen or (rarely) persue it in a court of law. The LEO in the street does not make or even interpret the law, they just enforce it. This is the basis of the constitutional, democratic system of justice.

Special interests organizations like the NRA are set up specifically to challenge the constitutionality of laws and procedures for the advancement of their goals. Maybe there should be an NBTA (National Bladed Tools Association) to lobby for blade enthusiasts rights and to educate people on practices for safe use and storage;) .

Of course, I live in Canada, so there's no hope for me:( . Save yourselves!!
 
Originally posted by teacher
It would be nice if the 'liberals' would regognize this.
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Which liberals do mean? The Bush administration officials at the FAA or John Ashcroft and his team at Justice? :rolleyes:

The present hysteria and associated "weapons" restrictions are nearly all coming from our conservative Executive Branch.

--Bob Q
 
I don't know what a "terry stop" is, but I talked with one of the officers who work part-time at the hospital and he said "You must have a good reason (probable cause) to stop anyone, and an even better reason to frisk them. Otherwise, whatever you find will not be permissable in court and you will probably be looking at a Police harassment and abuse of power charge".

As for my own opinion: If you're about to be frisked and/or arrested you had better tell the truth if the LEO asks.
You will not be doing yourself any favors if you say "I don't have any weapons" or "I decline to answer", and then the officer pulls a Cuda MAXX from you back pocket. He will then think everything else you say is also untruthful.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Originally posted by cerulean
It might be useful to point out that there are different kinds of searches that police officers can perform. They can "Terry" stop and frisk you for weapons, or they can do a more extensive search.

With a Terry stop and frisk, the officer doesn't need probable cause or your permission to search you.
Click to expand...

Without probable cause, they can't even pull you over, much less search you. I would never admit to carrying a weapon, and would never get out of the car.
My best friend is a cop. The first thing he has to establish in every report is cause.
 
when i was 11, i am 16 now, one of my freinds had let the air out of some kids bike tire,the kid told a cop and me and my freind were walking dow the street and the cop came bye and asked me and my freind if we slashed the kids bike tire, i said no then the cop asked if i had a knife and i said yea i have a little pocket knife, i reached in my pocket to take it out, it was a spyderco cricket and the cop attacked me and pulled my hand out of my pocket,then he reached i and took out the cricket, well i got taken home,my parents dont care because they know i carry knives but i got my knife taken away, i used to use it alot but the cop said because of the way the blade is shaped it is a weapon and intended to hurt somone, he probobly carries the thing now, im pissed i lost the knife but at least i didnt get in much trouble.

Anthony

P.S
anyone know were i can get a realy cheep cricket, or when the stainless steel cricket is comming out that thing is gonna be bad ass
 
Well not that I was ever in prison but they say you can even use a rolled up newspaper as a weapon , and they claim they can put it right threw you ! Dont know if thats true ,but i agree anything can be a weapon.Thats all I hear is whats ever in your hand at the moment is the best weapon :) I never been stopped with a knife .Tonight I went out with 4 on me . God only knows what i would say if I ever get frisked with 4 knives on me ! 5 counting the one in my center console of the car . I think they often ask if your have any sharp or pointy objects on you also and the wepons question , Not sure what order , But I think I would say I had a knife if they ask if I had any sharp objects on me! But no to the wepaon Question!I would the try and explain I collect knives and sell them !
 
OK, scenario: I'm stopped by a LEO and asked if I have any weapons. I have a Cuda Maxx in my jeans pocket. It is legal in the jurisdiction where I am. What would I say? "No, just a really big bagel slicer" is not a good idea. "Yes, I do, it's in my RF pocket" could be troublesome. But it's kind of disingenuous to say, "no, just my pocket knife". Seems like a sort of insoluble dilemma to me.
 
Try "No."(period)
Anything you add as a disclaimer will just scream "yes".


If it's a big deal, just ask if you're under arrest. If not, what does he care what you are legally carrying?
 
Well, I personally consider the knives that I carry to be tools. Thankfully, I've only used knives for daily chores; I've never had to hurt or threaten another human with one.

Look at it from a police officer's perspective though. A knife with a 3-inch blade, for example, can cause surprisingly horrific wounds. If an officer stops you, for whatever reason, they may want to know what you're carrying. They might even take your knife. After a few minutes of talking with you though, they can usually establish whether or not you're a good guy.

There definitely is a balance between the need for officer safety and the Fourth Amendment. (Unless you don't live in America :p .)

What I've seen seems to indicate that coppers don't need "probable cause" to frisk you (the term "probable cause" means something very specific, in legal terms), and don't need to arrest you before a search. Please check out these links, as they look like pretty good references: ARREST; PROBABLE CAUSE;
SEARCH WARRANTS and WARRANTLESS ARRESTS AND SEARCHES.

There are a lot of difficult constitutional issues here, but I have to agree with the phrase...
"There is not much that makes a LEO want to find a way to arrest you more than playing "Junior Attorney" after he/she asks a simple question related to Officer safety."
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:D. If you have a problem with what an officer is doing to you, then "Tell it to da judge!" as they say. It has to be much better to debate the legality of a search in court, rather than to become combative with an officer who wants to search you.
 
Steve, "Where police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity might be afoot and that person with whom he is dealing may be armed and dangerous.....he is entitled to conduct carefully limited search of outer clothing in attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him." Terry v. State of Ohio, 392 U.S. 1. In short, "Terry" stops are legal because the Supreme Court says they are.
 
Originally posted by Mike the JAG
"Where police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity might be afoot..."
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Isn't that probable cause?
 
To an extent I think it depends on the LEO questioning you and how he percieves a knife. If you reply that you have a knife that you use for work it will still be confiscated but more than likely returned.

Of course it will depend on the knife too. I don't think any cop will buy the story about you using a bowie knife to open letters.

I liked yobbos 1 comment about the way knives are viewed in the former Soviet Union, nothing like a common sense approach to the issue.:)
 
There seems to be a lot of speculation about what would happen if you were pulled over and searched, etc. Well, let me tell everyone what happened when I _was_ pulled over and searched.

I was pulled over for speeding in AZ a few years back. I was coming down a mountain road after doing some climbing. The sheriff had set up a speed trap and I was doing well over the speed limit. I knew he had me, so I pulled over in a safe spot even before I saw him pull out to come after me.

He walked up next to my window, and asked me for license, registration, insurance. After examining these, and asking me a couple of questions (where're you going, coming from etc) he then asks me if I had been doing any drinking or drugs that afternoon. I was kinda shocked. Never done drugs and alcohol and rock climbing just don't mix:). I answered truthfully - no.

He then asks me to step out of the car and walk to the rear of the vehicle. Of course I complied. He then asks me if I have any weapons, knives, guns, or needles. I answer yes a knife on my right hip (Buck Crosslock). He removes the knife, then procedes to search me. Satisfied, he again asks about the drugs and alcohol. Again, I answer no. He then tells me that because my eyes were really red (I wear contacts and it was a windy day) he thought that maybe I had been doing drugs/alcohol. Apperantly satisfied, he asks his only questions about my knife, is this a switchblade. No. Then examines/opens it to make sure (just as an aside, I thought they were legal in AZ???).

He then wrote me a huge ticket ($200.00) and sends me on my way. He actually fudged on the speed a little though, 1mph over what he wrote me at would have been crimanal traffic violation and court for me.

So is appears as though most LEOs aren't going to ask you a generalized "Do you have any weapons" question. Rather they will most likely ask, "Do you have any guns or knives". Watching Cops seems to confirm this.

Your best bet is just to tell the officer what you're carrying without admitting it's a weapon. He'll feel safer and feel more at ease if you're not argumentative.

Anyone have a similiar experience?

EDIT:

Just found this from the links above regarding Terry frisks:

1. Armed or dangerous: The frisk may take place only if the officer has a reasonable belief that D may be armed or dangerous. Thus if D’s hands are empty, he gives no indication of possessing a weapon, he makes no gestures indicating an intent to commit assault, and he acts generally in a non-threatening manner, the officer probably may not conduct even the basic outside-the-clothes pat-down. See Ybarra v. Illinois, supra] [131]
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This seems to indicate, had I not admitted to having a knife, the sheriff probably would not have been able to frisk me. Had he done so anyway and found an illegal weapon or contraband, this evidence would not have been admissable.
 
Switchblades are legal in AZ, but without a CCW they can be considered to be a deadly weapon. It depends on the officer if your carrying your auto blade as a weapon in AZ.
 
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