Weird quench suggestion by a rep

E

Ed Braun

Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
148
To the point--I was checking local regional reps for HeatBath and Houghton's trying to see if I could source a reasonably close sources for #50, AAA, and Houghton K Quench when one of Houghton's customer service reps began chatting with me about how tough it is for knifemakers to find cost effective quantities.
Supposedly, while pulling the contact info for AMC Carbide and Tool, also pulled up comparison charts they have on hand. According to this particular rep, of all things, power steering fluid--in his case the brand he named was Johnsen's--contains a detergent and surfactant. It was his belief the surfactant might mean lower viscosity and thus bringing it into the same cooling rate as AAA.

This isn't a debate or really even a question about quenchants--more or less throwing what I was told today to the community. I searched multiple times without seeing it pop up for blade work (just automotive) except for a thread where someone had tried using it in a goop mix and (no surprise) cracked an edge. In that thread, PSF wasn't the point to the convo--it was trying to salvage the blade.

Given ALL the debates and discussions of quenchants previously on this forum, especially Mr. Cashen's incredible volumes and distinctions for the various alternatives that people try--this especially makes me dubious to this latest claim.
The only reason I even bring it up is because while canola, peanut, Automatice Trans, and so on have been discussed, I've not seen power steering fluid among those on here or the American Bladesmith Society's forums and asking for simply point of reference--for example, should someone go searching for it in the future.
I'm not buying the voodoo and not about to try it, I personally worry that whatever additives would mean a lower flash point, plus whatever toxic fumes --however, I know some of you guys have had to have tried it without good results, otherwise people would be talking about it.
Again, simply for point of reference--has anyone tried it?
 
Power steering fluid is similar to ATF if I'm not mistaken, but it costs more (this could be why you don't see it being used). Again, as in all things that aren't engineered for the purpose of quenching: the manufacturer can randomly change the additives to make it perform better at its actual engineered purpose. This means that it works today, but might not work when you buy it the next time, and you will have a heck of a time figuring out why. None of their service folks will have an answer for you, nor should they.
 
stevomiller said:
Power steering fluid is similar to ATF if I'm not mistaken, but it costs more (this could be why you don't see it being used). Again, as in all things that aren't engineered for the purpose of quenching: the manufacturer can randomly change the additives to make it perform better at its actual engineered purpose. This means that it works today, but might not work when you buy it the next time, and you will have a heck of a time figuring out why. None of their service folks will have an answer for you, nor should they.
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Actually the service folks should have a answer for you as it is a chemical that you are using and as such should know its properties in order to take proper protective action while handling. Not saying that any will but they should.
 
It has been used many times before. It is usually just called ATF, not power steering fluid when used as a quenchant. The two are interchangeable on many car systems. PSF has more lubricants and detergents, but has the same mineral oil base as ATF. On cars it is more specific as to type ( Type A,Type F, Dexron-II), but for quenching, it really doesn't matter.
All the reasons you gave are why it isn't the quenchant of choice for an alternative to commercial quenchants.

FWIW, ATF/PSF seem to burn and degrade rather quickly. This is most likely because quenching in it is often done in a 1 or 2 quarts, and not in several gallons, which is a more proper quench volume. By the time you purchase five gallons of ATF/PSF at $25/gal you might as well have bought five gallons of commercial quenchant.

For a simple alternative quenchant, canola oil seems the best fit.

Just as a three pound pipe wrench CAN be used to drive a nail instead of a three pound hammer.....
Five gallons of ATF CAN be used to quench a knife instead of Park's AAA.
BUT, isn't it really easier, more economical, and wiser to use the right tool for the job?
 
Ed -- Welcome to BF. As a moderator, I'm surprised Stacey didn't suggest you put you location in your profile. That's a common request, as you never know who might be in your area that might be able to help out with suggestions, etc. Where's "reasonably close"? -- Phil
 
quint said:
Actually the service folks should have a answer for you as it is a chemical that you are using and as such should know its properties in order to take proper protective action while handling. Not saying that any will but they should.
Click to expand...
Of course they know the chemical changes, and perhaps the MSDS will reveal it. But please explain if either an automotive chemicals service rep, or you/I understand exactly how those chemical additions/omissions affect the cooling rate of ~1500° steel? Not being quenchant engineers somewhat insures that. The impact of the ingredient change is the point I was making, not the ingredients themselves.
 
Stacy--thank you for responding and supplying the serious testimony I was requesting. As I said before, ATF hasn't been compared to power steering fluid in established, benchmark threads and I felt should be clarified. I know that I ultimately have never had to ask a question on here as the majority of anything worth asking has already been covered and easily accessible through the forum search. I thought it an odd quirk there'd be no official mention, and so your information should literally be the nail in that coffin.Even after 20+ years on the net, it'll never cease amazing me that folks would either forgo a search, or even miss stickied threads with titles such as "newbies read this first."
On the quench topic, personally, I seperate the industrial waxes and fats from canola oil by using acetone--letting the mix sit in the back of the shop loosely covered for several days and then decanting the filtered oil and leaving the milky industrial additives in the bottom of the pan. I then use a depth block of A2 (broken shoe die from a customer) warmed to about 150-200 degrees and immerse it in the now diluted oil to wick off any remaining acetone. The rest of the acetone is removed by pouring it into a Goodwil rescued crock pot and left to sit on the lowest setting for a night. With 1095 I get a 7-second quench with what I guess could count for fair results--58-59Rc. I bevel test "coupons" to match blade designs, RC test, and break to check grain patterns. That said, it's a whole lotta work for a limited lifespan tool and I want 5 gallons of #50 or Houghton K, but last I checked, would run me close to two bills.

Phil--I'm sorry, I must not have hit save when I registered and filled out those sections. I have been, tentatively, writing a post for the "who the heck are you" and "where in the world are you" threads, but revising to be more brief--my worst fault as a wordsmith becoming a bladesmith is balancing lucidity with brevity. As precious a commodity as time is in this trade, I'd hate to soak up too much of another's by simply being a long-winded git.
I'm afraid I live in Valdosta, Lowndes County, Georgia; a machinists nightmare as far as industrial supplies go--nobody locally carries supplies remotely related to our line of work and I've had to fall back on Hacker skills (please note--there's a distinction between a Hacker, someone who tinkers, and a Cracker, a person who writes malicious software or invades secure networks) to get by. My anvil, for example, is a sad little 55lb Harbor Fright ASO that I had to modify by welding a chunk of AR900 on top. While nowhere near acceptable as a hammering surface, it's still a far cry from the pathetic, porous sponge I was working with before. The closest blade network is Statesboro, almost 4 hours away--and the same holds true in general direction as far as other members of the community or possible material suppliers--between 4-5 hours. The "nearest" location at an hour and a half away is just over the border in Gainesville, Fla.
I've been hunting for an anvil for close to two years, and any major endeavors within the craft require those aggravating long, slow waits for stuff to be shipped in...fortunately folks like Aldo, Chuck (AKS) and the Mickleys are always ready to help when and where they can. Part of the reason I take the extra step trying to find regional suppliers for stuff like refractory and quenchants is to give some of our fellow makers options. For example, I'm personally a fan of Plistix 900F over ITC100 and a regional distributor for plistix is available in Jacksonville. Larry Zoeller and Wayne Coe are the only two gentlemen who stock/supply it at this time--as you might know, Larry went down last summer for shoulder surgery that ended up delaying him by several months. Likewise, Wayne was getting ready to start advertising the MOE grinder and finalizing his design--since then, he's had to focus on that aspect of his business. I'd thought about ordering in an 55lb pail of Plistix 900F to aid them and other makers since it is a reasonable ITC replacement.
 
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If you're looking for reasonably priced quenchants sold by knowledgable reps, give Maxim Oil a try. They are based out of Texas.

They carry Parks 50 from time to time (and sell it at an unbelievably reasonable price), as well as other quenchants, and they also make their own, of which I have read several positive reviews.
 
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