Weird smells and blown fuses.

[AFCCT vet]

I've shown this to my Daughter, an Electrical Engineer, the very first words out of her were, "he's sitting on a death trap" the rest echo'd Gollnick's words on the subject.

 

[KennyB]

Man, I knew this was going to wind up being a really huge problem.

Anyway, wow... This is a huge pickle. I suppose I should just stop being shy and mention to you guys that as far as my tennant rights go here, I have none as I'm not on the lease, and I don't even know if the landlord knows there's someone sleeping in their about-to-burn-down garage. To me it seems more likely that they would just evict me and my friend and his family for letting me stay here, instead of ponying up the cash to actually fix the wiring. Better to throw a family out on the street than be liable for them burning up, right?

I don't even know what to do now except just shut the power off and come up with some way to hire an electrician. Of course, that would only be for the garage. If the house is throwing 60 amp fuses, it's apparently in a very bad way itself?

I had a feeling this was serious when I noticed it. I don't want to end up being one of the thousands of electrical fire statistics, but I'm not at all sure what I can do now. At least I know that it's in definite need of a solution now though.

I don't want to tempt fate. I mean, really, I posted this thread thinking I was being a little paranoid, but with the thought of, "Well, I'm not going to end up one of those charcoal briscuits that thought it would be okay for one winter." So now I find myself thinking solutions like lower amperage fuses just to buy me whatever kind of electrical luxury I can afford, but it seems like the safest bet would just to flip the main switch to off and keep it there until I get an electrician.

Well, I guess that's probably just about all you guys can actually help me with. Looks like it's up to me to decide what to do with the information.

I'm going to try to get ahold of an electrician. What's just a ball-park figure of what I should expect to pay for this kind of service? Hundreds? Thousands? I really have no idea how much money to start with, and not a whole lot to work with. Is it possible for a company to give me a quote without seeing the actual wiring?

Anyway. Power goes off tonight, electrician gets called in the morning. Thanks, guys. Wish me luck.

 

[Nimick]

Also a heavy duty extension cord is a temporary and still dangerous solution, people forget about cords, they don't inspect them frequently enough the insulation gets cracked, the ends get stretched, strain reliefs fail and before ya know it fire.

Extension cords should never take the place of proper wiring.

I found a rather long heavy-duty extension cord. Not sure how long, but I've got two extra 25 ft'ers so I should be able to run from a circuit in the house, but I'm not even sure how great the wiring in there is as we just had a 30 amp T fuse and a 60 amp cartridge fuse blow last night.

A) I echo Gollnick's reaction, the fact that you're blowing 60amp fuses is frightening. I've seen what 60 amps can do when they get pissed-off.

B) This may be a little late, but if you are going to try the extension cord thing, make sure it is as short as possible. also Heavy Duty means at least 12 gauge.

 

[Cougar Allen]

It's only going to get worse. When copper is hot it oxidizes, which increases the resistance, which makes it get hotter, which makes it oxidize more ...

 

[yablanowitz]

If they popped a 60 amp fuse in the house, run for your life. I mean that literally, don't even go back for your stuff. You're better off living in a cardboard box in a drainage culvert burning shipping pallets for heat. Unless you really want to be extra-crispy, in which case you can stay there.

 

[Gollnick]

It's only going to get worse. When copper is hot it oxidizes, which increases the resistance, which makes it get hotter, which makes it oxidize more ...

Oh, don't worry... the newer wiring in the garage is probably aluminum.




Seriously, the tenent on the lease needs to call the landlord. Once informed of the problem, the landlord has three choices:

1) Kick out his existing tenents and leave the property empty... but no landlord wants to have a property empty.

2) Kick out his existing tenents and get new ones... but the old ones will report the situation to the health and fire departments and they'll revoke the occupancy permit, slap him with a bunch of fines, and take a special interest in his other properties too.

3) Fix the problem.

Once he's aware of the problem and chooses to ignore it, his insurance becomes worthless. The carrier won't pay when the building burns down. If you are aware of a serious and obvious problem and willfully choose to ignore it, your insurance doesn't cover it.

If he ignores such a problem, he also leaves himself open to civil and even criminal liability for any loss which happens.

They need to call him today.... yes, on a Sunday. This problem is that serious.

They also need to mail him a letter tomorrow which says, "Dear Sir, we wish to bring to your attention a problem which we are having in your house at X street. We are experiencing frequent blown fuses including 60A fuses. Some of the eletrical fixtures and fittings are often very hot to the touch. We frequently notice a strong burning and electrical smell in the air. In the interest of protecting your property, we are certain that you will want to hire a licensed electrician to address this obvious serious electrical problem." If there's no response within a few days, then send it again registered mail.

Without knowing much of the details, my guess is that this is a multi-thousand dollar problem.

 

[Kiah]

I'm going to try to get ahold of an electrician. What's just a ball-park figure of what I should expect to pay for this kind of service? Hundreds? Thousands? I really have no idea how much money to start with, and not a whole lot to work with. Is it possible for a company to give me a quote without seeing the actual wiring?

Anyway. Power goes off tonight, electrician gets called in the morning. Thanks, guys. Wish me luck.

You're not really a tenant, let alone the owner, so you can't contract work on the house. On that note, you shouldn't have to. That mess is the landlord's responsibility and I believe they will be responsible for hiring an electrician and paying for it. I'm not an electrician, but I've done enough wiring to know you're in a bad situation. If the renters you're staying with won't shut down power to the entire house like right now, I'd grab a tent, tarp, box, whatever and move a good distance into the yard till it's fixed if it were me. Fire=bad.

 

[KennyB]

Well, it looks like I don't have any other option but to convince the people that are actually renting the place to talk to the landlord about it if it's going to run up into that kind of money.

Suppose I get an eviction notice, would then reporting it to the fire and health department even help me get back into the place, or will I basically be out on my duff? I guess anything is better than living in a fire trap, but still...

The rental market where I live is so saturated that I believe if we were to be kicked out, they would have another tennant lined up before they even gave us notice. The whole reason I'm even here is because I couldn't find a place to rent.

About the 60A fuse. When I say "blow", I'm not talking about it exploded and blew into pieces in case that's what you guys mean. It just lost its connectivity and had to be replaced before the power came back on. Maybe I'm just grasping for straws to see if that situation isn't as dire as it seems...

On the upside all the wiring is copper. I guess there's one little plus?


Well, now I've got to figure out a way to convince the people renting this place it's a problem for find a new place to live. The problem is that they generally don't like to listen people with degrees in the matter, supposing that they exaggerate the problem too much. My problem is that I know just how much people like that don't take things seriously enough.

Then again, if melted plastic fumes, blown fuses too hot to touch and 3 electrical engineers basically describing the situation as a "death trap" can't convince them, I don't know what I can do.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

In some states renters can withhold rent by putting into a interest bearing bank account until the landlord either does the repairs or the tennant has enough to hire someone to fix the problem, look up renters rights for your state.

Might not help you directly but it'll give the renters of the house some recourse who in turn might be able to let you stay after the wiring is updated and brought up to code, it's not uncommon for a garage to have a 100 amp service around here.

Most garages serve double duty as a workshop and garage which should justify the upgrade for the garage.

The way it looks it can't hurt to check it out.

 

[yablanowitz]

I knew what you meant by "blowing the fuse", the fuse acted to stop current flow in order to prevent a fire, the same as tripping a breaker in more modern wiring. 60 amps is a lot of current. If you turn on all four top elements and the oven on an electric range, it doesn't draw 60 amps. If the electric stove was on the same circuit as an electric water heater and they came on at the same time, maybe it would draw that much. Of course, if they are on the same circuit, the wiring is wrong anyway, but I digress. The point I am drifting toward is that generally, nothing but a dead short circuit will blow a 60 amp fuse. Something is seriously wrong with the wiring in that house, and it will start a fire if it isn't repaired.

 

[Cougar Allen]

The landlord can't throw the current tenants out and move new ones in without fixing it. That's not an option for him at all. I doubt he wants to burn the place down anyway....

Your friends can tell him you're not living there, you're only staying there temporarily until you find a place. It's the truth, isn't it? He probably won't have a problem with that.

 

[Gollnick]

I knew what you meant by "blowing the fuse"...

Ditto. It is really next to impossible to get a fuse to literally blow up in household electrical wiring. This isn't surprising. They're designed not to "blow up" but to "blow" safely with the outter body of the fuse safely containing the entire event. But, know this: that fuse interrupted a current well in excess of 60A, which, at 120VAC, is 7200W. That is a huge amount of energy.

... the fuse acted to stop current flow in order to prevent a fire, the same as tripping a breaker in more modern wiring. 60 amps is a lot of current. ... The point I am drifting toward is that generally, nothing but a dead short circuit will blow a 60 amp fuse. Something is seriously wrong with the wiring in that house, and it will start a fire if it isn't repaired.

Exactly correct.

Just to give one more point of reference, hand-held arc welding it typically done with about 100A, but at about 60V. At 60V, 100A is 6000W. So, that 60A fuse interrupted significantly more power than is used for typical arc welding. You have probably seen someone arc welding, the special mask they wear, the heavy gloves and apron they wear, the heavy cables used -- much heavier than even a "heavy-duty" extension cord -- the sparks flying everywhere, the big pieces of solid metal glowing yellow/white-hot and melting and flowing and fusing... that's 6000W. Imagine that... and a couple of thousand watts more worth... happening inside of a wall and with none of the protections that welders use.

Know this: When that 60A fuse blew, this is exactly what that fuse interrupted.

And that is why so many of your friends here are seriously afraid for your life.

 

[338375]

I can see where you would be hesitant, but this isn't a trivial matter.
You staying in the garage is the least of concerns. The people on the lease need to contact the landlord asap, as mentioned by others before me.

You shouldn't have to play Russian Roulette in a house you are living in.

It doesn't matter if it costs 200 dollars or 20,000 dollars to fix. Peoples lives are at stake.

If you can't get any satisfaction with this matter, find another friend or family member and get the hell out of there.
I'm sure they would rather be a little inconvenienced by having someone live with them temporarily than take a chance on having you die in a fire.

I don't know if you have, and its none of my business, but have you checked with social services to see if they can be of any help temporarily, regarding housing.

 

[KennyB]

Ditto. It is really next to impossible to get a fuse to literally blow up in household electrical wiring. This isn't surprising. They're designed not to "blow up" but to "blow" safely with the outter body of the fuse safely containing the entire event. But, know this: that fuse interrupted a current well in excess of 60A, which, at 120VAC, is 7200W. That is a huge amount of energy.



Exactly correct.

Just to give one more point of reference, hand-held arc welding it typically done with about 100A, but at about 60V. At 60V, 100A is 6000W. So, that 60A fuse interrupted significantly more power than is used for typical arc welding. You have probably seen someone arc welding, the special mask they wear, the heavy gloves and apron they wear, the heavy cables used -- much heavier than even a "heavy-duty" extension cord -- the sparks flying everywhere, the big pieces of solid metal glowing yellow/white-hot and melting and flowing and fusing... that's 6000W. Imagine that... and a couple of thousand watts more worth... happening inside of a wall and with none of the protections that welders use.

Know this: When that 60A fuse blew, this is exactly what that fuse interrupted.

And that is why so many of your friends here are seriously afraid for your life.

It's 7200W at 120V? Should I be worried by the fact that the fuse says 250 volt on it then? And yeah, I've actually done some arc welding, so that's not comforting.

Cougar Allen, they haven't exactly kept up on the rent, so that's one of the reasons they would probably evict them. They already have some reason to, and then on top of that they need to make all those repairs.

Anyway, it's not about hesitation, but there's only so much that I can really do. I really don't have many other places to stay but my car or the mission, and yeah I've already tried to talk to social services about housing. This is part of the reason I'm even staying in the garage right now. The issue about the landlord knowing I'm there "temporarily" is again that they're not really keeping up on the rent too well, and I've been hear for a month. So I'm not really sure if that just counts as "temporarily" to them.

I had a friend of mine look at it today. He's not really an electrician at all, but he's an older handyman type, and he pointed out a few problems to me. For one thing, the circuit that the 60 A fuse was on apparently has way too many things running on it according to him, and based on the amount of leads going into it. He also helped me spot that the wire leading to the garage is actually exposed on the outside of the house--no wonder I'm having problems with it. Anyway, he also made mention of the fact that we don't even know how old the 60 A fuse that was in there was, and that the one we replaced it with has been fine... So I'm not sure what to think about that. Obviously there is a problem, and it is still a fire hazard, but is it really on the verge of bursting into flames if it hasn't thrown this fuse too?

One thing I noticed today was that the other cartridge fuse in the housing for the range was only a 40 A. Do you think someone put a 60 A fuse in there because it kept blowing out the 40? I kind of think I should probably put a 40 back in just to be safe.

Anyway, I neglected that today was Sunday so I haven't been able to call an electrician yet. I think that we're probably going to talk to the landlord about it tomorrow to see what they're willing to do, because apparently there's been some issue with the electricity beforehand that they were sorting out so perhaps they will be more willing to have it repaired or repair it themselves despite the issues with rent.

In any case, there's not really too much I have the funds to do; I'm not really trying to be hesitant, as much as I'm just trying to look at what is possible for me. So far I've just been shutting the main power off at night until I can get a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher, and running as minimal amount of stuff as I can during the day--I still don't really feel comfortable running anything during the day either though, so I've been keeping it to pretty much lights only as you suggested.

 

[meako]

pay for the sparky to come & have a look asap. its GOT to be cheaper than having a house fire.

 

[Gollnick]

Should I be worried by the fact that the fuse says 250 volt on it then?

The voltage rating on a fuse is the maximum voltage it can safely interrupt... if the truth be known, it is about 1/3 of the maximum it can safely interrupt. The current rating, amps, is what is important and what is frightening everyone here.

I had a friend of mine look at it today. He's not really an electrician at all, but he's an older handyman type, and he pointed out a few problems to me. For one thing, the circuit that the 60 A fuse was on apparently has way too many things running on it according to him, and based on the amount of leads going into it. He also helped me spot that the wire leading to the garage is actually exposed on the outside of the house--no wonder I'm having problems with it. Anyway, he also made mention of the fact that we don't even know how old the 60 A fuse that was in there was, and that the one we replaced it with has been fine... So I'm not sure what to think about that. Obviously there is a problem, and it is still a fire hazard, but is it really on the verge of bursting into flames if it hasn't thrown this fuse too?

None of this is good. And, yes, you are on the verge of bursting into flames. 60A fuses should not, in my opinion be sold over-the-counter. Blowing a 60A really stresses the whole system. It needs to be checked out and the cause of the blown 60A found and corrected.

One thing I noticed today was that the other cartridge fuse in the housing for the range was only a 40 A. Do you think someone put a 60 A fuse in there because it kept blowing out the 40? I kind of think I should probably put a 40 back in just to be safe.

This was a common problem with cartridge fuses and I do suspect that this is what happened. I do suggest replacing it with a 40 or even a 30 to be safer.

Whatever you do, keep posting here every hour or so so we know you're still alive.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Just to give ya some perspective on wire gauge outlets in the home are typically rated for 15 amps usin' 14 AWG wire, 12 AWG would be better as it's rated up to 20 amps, 60 amps requires a minimum of 6 AWG wire.

Here's a visual representaion of the diameter AWG:

This should give you an idea of the size wire need for 60 amp draw much less a higher current draw and that needed for a typical 15 anp circuit.

 

[dttomcat]

Ohm's Law. Amps times volts equals watts. 1500 is a big number. Plug it in to the equation and do the math. Better yet, your nose knows. I have worked as an electrician and our noses sometimes tell us much more than even our eyes. If you smell toxic smoke, ... yes toxic smoke... , then something is failing. Take it from someone who knows about various types of toxic smoke. Find out what has failed and why and correct the problem. Otherwise, you may find yourself in dreamland and wake up to a nightmare. Or you may not wake up at all and you'll just be a piece of charcoal. Good luck.

 

[dttomcat]

BTW, on a thirty amp circuit the appropriate wire gauge would be 10. Highly unlikely that your converted garage is wired with 10 gauge stuff. If you try to push 14 gauge wire to 30 amps you could easily end up toast. Capiche?

 

[Shann]

If you are a renter notify your landlord immediately!!!

I own a couple of apartment rentals and I make it very clear that (apart from the check being on time ) that my tenants have to tell me about any electric, furnace or water questions. The landlord is responsible for the electricity, but can't fix it if he doesn't know about it.

As a landlord, if the paint is faded or the carpet worn, well that can be fixed on a long range maintenance schedule, but water, heating and electrical have to be taken care of by professionals asap. Legally speaking its called "habitability" but more importantly, it can be dangerous.

FYI--Some (many?) municipalities forbid the use of space heaters in rental units.