welded on tang problem

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Dec 9, 2007
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Hi, I had purchased a "scrap" piece of twisted damascus from knifekits. Wanted to make a hidden tang knife and since I don't weld, I took it to a welder and had him weld on a stick tang piece of same material. That went fine. I went to grind down the weld material and flatten out the area, no problem. The stick tang that was welded on wasn't exactly flat, so I went to straighten it out a little, blade in vise, a little tension with pliers on tang and the tang snapped right off. Where it broke was maybe 3/16 up the blade from the weld.
Can someone tell me whats up here? Where it broke, the steel looks like if you smashed open a piece of cast iron...
Is it the weld process, is it just crappy damascus....
Thanks for your advise,
SD
 
You have two things going against you. 1.) the crystalline structure of a hardened piece of metal like that (regardless if it is damascus or not) does not lend itself to welding, and 2.) Metals that have a Carbon Equivalency of ~.4 and above are not readily weldable. Even a piece of 1075 that was un-heat treated would require pre-heat and slow cool to weld successfully.
 
I'll take a stab.......... What I read is that it broke above the weld on the damascus side. The coarse grain was due to growth when welding (lots of heat).

The damascus either air hardened or perhaps the welder cooled it with water. Either way, it made it brittle.

Perhaps it could have been avoided if you had done a couple of normalizing cycles or even an anneal before trying to bend anything.

Just my thoughts.

Robert
 
Those guys have it, grain growth and probably air hardening due to welding. You can try to grind the tang to clean metal at the break and braze an extension on. Because brazing can be done below the critical point (non magnetic heat) of the steel, the grain will not grow and it should not air harden. There is info in this type of stuff if you search in shoptalk threads.

If you want to be fastidious about it, maybe normalize and re-heat treat the blade to reduce grain size in the tang and improve strength, then braze repair.
 
I weld lots of tangs on damascus and other blades. If I need to bend or straighten the tang, I heat it to medium red heat and work it hot. The thing to to do to prevent breakage after the weld is normalize and then do a sub-critical anneal. If I am not worried about breaking the tang off, at the very minimum, I stick the blade in the oven at 450F for an hour or two after the weld.
 
Never try to straighten a hardened piece of tool steel below 400 F. Welding hardenable steels in general requires pre and post -heating.
 
A mortise and tenon joint, with a close fitting joint and using a tig welder at the joint, makes the best tang addition. IMHO.
 
Fred has a good point. A plain butt weld is inherently weak. Even a simple 45° angle butt weld is stronger.

While most folks don't go as far as make a M&T joint, or have a TIG welder, nearly the same degree of joint strength can be had fairly easily with the simple flux-core wire welders that most folks have.

Tip#1
Do the welding before the blade is shaped beyond the basic profile. Profile the tang about 1/8"-1/4" oversized in width. Cut a "V" where the welded extension will go. Cut a point on the extension piece to tightly fit the "V". Slightly chamfer all edges with a file so there is a small valley running along the weld line. Clamp everything up tight and snug on a flat metal plate and use your wire welder to weld a line down the "V" from one side. Let it cool while clamped, grind that surface flat with your angle grinder ( try and keep clamped), flip the blade over and re-clamp as before, and weld the other side of the "V". Let it cool a bit while clamped and grind the second weld. Remove from the clamps.
Heat the tang to low red once or twice (1000-1200°... still magnetic) and let air cool. Place in the oven at 450F for an hour or two..........Grind the knife as desired. For a narrower hidden tang, the same procedure can be done with a simple 45° joint instead of a "V".
If you want to, a full thermal cycling and speroidization can be done on the blade after the weld and before grinding to remove any hardness or stress. Done right, the weld will be about as strong as the rest of the blade.

As with any welding procedure, practice this on scrap until you know the settings and weld speed needed for getting a full penetration weld. Bend test these practice pieces after annealing and tempering. They may break at or near the weld, but should not snap easily.

Tip #2
At the prices we pay for it, no one likes putting damascus inside a hidden or through tang handle. But do yourself and the knife a favor, if you are going to weld an extension on the damascus, put the joint at least 1-1.5" away from the guard/ricasso. Yes, that is a bit of money to "waste", but if the knife breaks...it is all waste. All the leverage of the blade and handle concentrate in the 1" before and after the handle/blade junction. Is that where you want the weak spot to be in the metal? A wide and strong ricasso, a well fitted guard or bolsters, and a strong and wide section of tang for at least 1" beyond will assure a strong knife. For the same reason, deep choils on either side of the junction are also bad ideas, as the knife will fail at that spot if pushed to the elastic limit.

BTW, that is why they are called "bolsters", as they strengthen the area that is weakest.
 
I am a retired welder and there was one thing that we did for a special application in the plant I worked in where basically we did that same thing that you guys are doing with the tangs. We did a M&T type joint that was a hardened high carbon steel on one side and a mild steel extension on the other and we did these joints with high temp silver solder. We did hundreds of these over years and had very few problems with it.
 
That works fine for post HT attachment, but won't work for attaching the tang pre-HT.
 
I am a retired welder and there was one thing that we did for a special application in the plant I worked in where basically we did that same thing that you guys are doing with the tangs. We did a M&T type joint that was a hardened high carbon steel on one side and a mild steel extension on the other and we did these joints with high temp silver solder. We did hundreds of these over years and had very few problems with it.

Stacy,I belive he is refering to Nichol silver brazing rods. they melt at 1600 degrees. This is how I do tang extensions. Braze normalize than heat treat,never had one break.
 
All the silver braze I have been able to find melts right around 1200f. Even at 1600f it is way close to HT temps to hold up. Tig weld is the answer here, pre HT with good normalizing cycles. I took it one step further when I needed to do this and used stainless wire. It has held strong for years now without any indication of problems.
 
Thanks to all for advise! I normalized this weekend reshaped into and appropriate shaped joint as described and will have it welded again this week. Then will cycle it again before I proceed.
Thanks,
SD
 
i had the same prob until I started using no carbon steel for the tang extension leroyk
 
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