Welding billets for San Mai

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Nov 27, 2013
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Let me start off by saying, I have VERY little welding experience. I think I might have mig welded a few pieces of steel together while in high skrool, but that was long ago and I haven't retained anything from that other than a faint memory. I forge welded one billet of San Mai(15n20

I just got a new mig welder and am wondering how to go about welding smaller billet stacks for San Mai. It's a 180 amp mig/flux core Lincoln welder(Lincoln 180HD). I'd prefer to use the flux core wire for now because I don't have any gas/tanks yet.

In the operator manual it references steel thickness a lot, but being as I'd be welding on the side/edge of the steel, would that make any difference? I imagine not as I'm essentially just tacking the pieces together for a dry weld(without flux, borax, or kerosene). In that regard, I would prefer to weld up the entire perimeter for a dry weld. That way has just worked better for me because borax flux has already taken out a chunk of my forge innards. Any idea what would be the best setting to set the welder at? I would think one pass across the perimeter would be wide enough to hold the stack together and seal the inside. Then I thought, since there are two areas where steels come together(in a stack of three pieces) I might want to do two passes. One on each area were the steels meet together. Then I would imagine I could just let the wire rest in the groove between the two pieces, and let mud fly. That might be overkill though. If I was to do one pass, would I just want to do one pass around the middle of the stack(so the weld bleeds into both the two sections where the pieces stack together)?

At the moment I'm using 15n20 as the jacket and 1084 as the core. I'd really like to do a stainless steel jacket, with a high carbon steel core though. I REALLY like the high contrast look of bright stainless with a dark, black core. From what I've read, forge welding stainless and high carbon stacks is a little more complicated. How would I go about doing that? What would be the "best" steels to do this with? Would I just use the same method as I would with the 15n20 and 1084?

Lastly, and this is of little concern at the moment. How would one go about doing a dry weld on a thicker stack, like Damascus? It would seem like that would be a lot of weld material to put down if the stack was especially thick. In that regard, is it even worth dry welding? Again, I'm not really worried about this at the moment as I'm using an Atlas Mini-forge and the mouth isn't large enough to accommodate thicker stacks of steel.

I have a tendency to over analyze things too much, and I wouldn't doubt it if this is the case with this. Either way, I figure you guys would know how to get this done.
 
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I dry weld all the time and I don't weld the entire sides. If your forge setting is correct the forge atmosphere shelds the steel. But if your dry welding make sure all steel surfaces are CLEAN. On a thin San-Mia stack I would consider welding the parameter becaus it going to be hard to weld the entire thing at once and if it cools down befor you weld it all the way your scrued. As to your welder you just need to play with it and see what setting lay a shallow bead. Your not after penetration per say your just sealing it up. So play with it and see what you can get it to do. As to doing stainless that's a bit more Chalanging and once you get the carbon steel welding down then start playing with that.
 
This is how my stacks look befor dry welding.
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Then after the first weld I lightly flux the edges and re weld. Dry welding some times does not weld to the edge so a tiny big of flux will set the edges and everything is good.
 
Thanks JT! The 15n20 I'm using is actually stuff I got from you.

So, with a thinner stack for San mai I could weld all the way around? I'm pretty sure that's what guys were recommending when I researched making San mai.
 
Keep in mind that many guys doing dry welds - like me - are doing so because we're welding stainless/wrought iron to simple carbon. We're not welding two carbon steels together.
That said, anything that will work for stainless/wrought iron san-mai will work for two carbon steels - not the other way around.
Many guys these days when welding stainless San-mai billets simply put their pieces in a short piece of tail pipe and press the ends tight. Put in a small piece of paper or coal to burn up the oxygen and you now have an oxygen-free container for a dry weld. Press the tail pipe tube and billet all at once and it's a done deal.
When welding around an entire billet there is a great possibility of heating the pieces enough to get lots of oxidation heat coloring which can and WILL mess up a dry weld.
 
Thanks for you reply Karl.

Would stainless steel foil, like the stuff used during heat treating stainless in an oven, work in place of the muffle tube? I don't have any sections of muffler laying around but I do have a big role of the stainless foil.

I don't have a press or a power hammer, so this endeavor is going to have to be done by hand. That's why I made the thread about San mai and not Damascus. Is it even feasible to do a stainless/carbon steel billet by hand? If so, does anyone have advice?
 
I have use stainless foil and it works. But I run my forge really rich so I don't know if the foil did its job or if it was just the forge atmosphere. The Gould will burn away fast if it's in direct exposure with the flame.
 
Personally I would not want to do a san-mai billet by hand.
Why don't you try and let us know the results?
I learned san-mai by many, many failures after many, many attempts.
Maybe you can learn a new process and share it with us?
 
Personally I would not want to do a san-mai billet by hand.
Why don't you try and let us know the results?
I learned san-mai by many, many failures after many, many attempts.
Maybe you can learn a new process and share it with us?

Believe me, I don't want to lol. Unfortunately I don't have any other options at the moment.

A while back I started this thread on my initial run at San Mai. It has some good info about doing it by hand:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...uining-some-15n20-1080-trying-to-make-San-Mai
 
I have never tried this so take it with a spoon full of flux. I have read that with everything clean and at welding temp you can weld using a vise as a kind of press. Forge welding does not take a lot pressure as long as everything is prepared correctly. But it might be worth a shot and see if it works for you. But I would dry weld it and weld around the entire parimater first to keep any air out as it's going to take you a few heats to weld the entire billet.
 
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