- Joined
- Jul 29, 2010
- Messages
- 187
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Well, I'm done
- Thread starter SC_Dave
- Start date
BluntCut MetalWorks
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2012
- Messages
- 3,462
Those Shapton Pro (& Glass too) stones are really nice - keep them!
David - just pretend you are at a show; fast yakking and speed sharpening at the same time. Wear an assumed-confidence sharpening skills, grind dull knife with 320 and then 1K by feel the gap between spine and stone. Practice grind at 10-12dps so you can easily hear apexing-burrs forming. For extensive grind, flip bevel side to avoid lopsided grind on one side, working toward apex from both sides. Your eyes mostly for keeping the blade within the stone perimeter. A nice clean strong sharp edge around target bevel angle is 90+% there, remaining % (bevel evenness, scratch free, etc...) is just form/look. Low&Hi alloy 2K & 5K SPro edges will scare show goers
David - just pretend you are at a show; fast yakking and speed sharpening at the same time. Wear an assumed-confidence sharpening skills, grind dull knife with 320 and then 1K by feel the gap between spine and stone. Practice grind at 10-12dps so you can easily hear apexing-burrs forming. For extensive grind, flip bevel side to avoid lopsided grind on one side, working toward apex from both sides. Your eyes mostly for keeping the blade within the stone perimeter. A nice clean strong sharp edge around target bevel angle is 90+% there, remaining % (bevel evenness, scratch free, etc...) is just form/look. Low&Hi alloy 2K & 5K SPro edges will scare show goers
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2013
- Messages
- 97
As others have said it just comes down to practice. And not practice as in "my xxx knife if dull so im going to bust out the stones and give it a whirl" kind of practice. I mean the "honey, why can't I find any of the kitchen knives. Are you in the basement sharpening them AGAIN for the 5th time this week?" kind of practice. I have an E.P.A with all the bells and whistles such as all the CKTG add-ons, Sharpton Glass and Atoma stones, etc.. I became obsessed with freehand sharpening and thought I would NEVER become even mediocre with it. My obsessive personality got the best of me and one thing about the Edge Pro, it gave me a benchmark to shoot for with freehand sharpening. Nowadays my EPA is just collecting dust. Its a great system but now my freehand edges are every bit has sharp as those from the EPA. Plus the lack of a mechanical machine gives me far more versatility and options.
-i love the slight convex I get from it. It allows me to push to even thinner edge angles without losing strength
-i have the ability to control how much convex I can put on the bevel
-Your knives should NEVER EVER get even slightly dull cause it is so ridiculously easy to do touch ups. Once a strop can't get back to 100% sharpness, just a dozen or so passes on the final finishing stone brings it back to perfect. With the machine its a hassle to get it out, set it up, find your previous angle, and make just a few touch up passes.
-my personal fav. way to sharpen is to create a super low angle with a convexed secondary bevel and a micro bevel. Trying to do this and blend it with the Edge pro would look silly with every angle change creating a new bevel at a slightly different angle instead of a nice convex shoulder.
Sorry if this is confusing but the point is the simpler you keep your sharpening, the more complex the different tasks u can achieve. If you dont want to practice that hard and overly complex things, the Edge Pro, Wicked Edge, or any other fixed angle device will work great so long as you take the time to familiarize yourself with the system. Its not freehand sharpening but there us a learning curve to anything. Good luck and let us know what happens.
-i love the slight convex I get from it. It allows me to push to even thinner edge angles without losing strength
-i have the ability to control how much convex I can put on the bevel
-Your knives should NEVER EVER get even slightly dull cause it is so ridiculously easy to do touch ups. Once a strop can't get back to 100% sharpness, just a dozen or so passes on the final finishing stone brings it back to perfect. With the machine its a hassle to get it out, set it up, find your previous angle, and make just a few touch up passes.
-my personal fav. way to sharpen is to create a super low angle with a convexed secondary bevel and a micro bevel. Trying to do this and blend it with the Edge pro would look silly with every angle change creating a new bevel at a slightly different angle instead of a nice convex shoulder.
Sorry if this is confusing but the point is the simpler you keep your sharpening, the more complex the different tasks u can achieve. If you dont want to practice that hard and overly complex things, the Edge Pro, Wicked Edge, or any other fixed angle device will work great so long as you take the time to familiarize yourself with the system. Its not freehand sharpening but there us a learning curve to anything. Good luck and let us know what happens.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2001
- Messages
- 4,608
I alternate between left & right hand. This way, I can ensure the spine is about same distance from the stone. I'm right handed, but my leftt hand result is more consistent because I pay more attention to the weak hand.
There's instinctive knife sharpening taught by carl (jackknife). It might be useful:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMLu8e34ck
He taught a fellow forumite (Downhill Trucker IIRC) and the video is their collab.
There's instinctive knife sharpening taught by carl (jackknife). It might be useful:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMLu8e34ck
He taught a fellow forumite (Downhill Trucker IIRC) and the video is their collab.
- Joined
- May 2, 2004
- Messages
- 6,848
This discussion only comes about when discussing knives. I've never heard it from wood workers, or welders, machinist or modelers. It seems to be inherent to knife makers and sharpeners only; a desire to achieve precise results while using the very minimum of equipment even if it means the results are less than perfect.
Here's a man who's spent two years of his life trying to master, or even get acceptable results using nothing but his hands and stones, because he was under the impression that "freehand" is in some manner the preferred skill or if achieved, the Masters stamp of approval. I applaud your tenacity Sir. I admire anyone who can stick to a chosen path, Kudos to you. But its unnecessary.
If you were to ask me to dismantle my CNC controlled milling machines in favor of hand controlled milling, or doing the work with files and saws; I would laugh in your face. If you told me to throw out the dozens of welding jigs and fixtures in favor of using my eyes and hands to accomplish intricate welding set ups, I would think you were not being serious. If you came to me and ask me to build you one of my fine Queen Ann drop leaf tables, but you wanted me to do it without the set of jigs I've built to assure the construction is correct, I would tell you it will cost three times as much. If you ask me to grind you a large Bowie knife with a false edge, but you didn't want any fixture or jig to be used, you wanted it "freehand" I would tell you "it wont be as perfect as one I'd grind using a Bubble Jig; close, but not perfect.
So why is this not the case with knife sharpening or blade grinding? Why is there the misconception that doing without is better, even if it means a less than desirable end result. I believe it may be in how we like to see ourselves as someone who could survive in the bush with nothing but our trusty EDC and the clothes on our backs. It may be our craving for simplicity in this complex world we live in.
But this is the 21st century and we are, most of us any way, not living in caves and getting our water out of wells using a wooden bucket. This is the age of 3D printers and smart phones, wireless communication and Star Wars in 3D.
When I ship a knife to a customer it has an edge that is ground at a very specific angle, I ship a degree wedge along with the knife that matches this edge angle. In doing so I'm assured that the customer will be able to maintain the exact edge angle that the knife comes with. I don't want the customer to have to struggle to keep the edge sharp. In todays world, it should not be hard to do this.
I'm sure I'll continue to ponder this till the end of my days and may never come to an acceptable reason for why this happens.
Regards, Fred
OP the offer still stands on the degree wedges. No charge, just want to help you out. PM me.
Here's a man who's spent two years of his life trying to master, or even get acceptable results using nothing but his hands and stones, because he was under the impression that "freehand" is in some manner the preferred skill or if achieved, the Masters stamp of approval. I applaud your tenacity Sir. I admire anyone who can stick to a chosen path, Kudos to you. But its unnecessary.
If you were to ask me to dismantle my CNC controlled milling machines in favor of hand controlled milling, or doing the work with files and saws; I would laugh in your face. If you told me to throw out the dozens of welding jigs and fixtures in favor of using my eyes and hands to accomplish intricate welding set ups, I would think you were not being serious. If you came to me and ask me to build you one of my fine Queen Ann drop leaf tables, but you wanted me to do it without the set of jigs I've built to assure the construction is correct, I would tell you it will cost three times as much. If you ask me to grind you a large Bowie knife with a false edge, but you didn't want any fixture or jig to be used, you wanted it "freehand" I would tell you "it wont be as perfect as one I'd grind using a Bubble Jig; close, but not perfect.
So why is this not the case with knife sharpening or blade grinding? Why is there the misconception that doing without is better, even if it means a less than desirable end result. I believe it may be in how we like to see ourselves as someone who could survive in the bush with nothing but our trusty EDC and the clothes on our backs. It may be our craving for simplicity in this complex world we live in.
But this is the 21st century and we are, most of us any way, not living in caves and getting our water out of wells using a wooden bucket. This is the age of 3D printers and smart phones, wireless communication and Star Wars in 3D.
When I ship a knife to a customer it has an edge that is ground at a very specific angle, I ship a degree wedge along with the knife that matches this edge angle. In doing so I'm assured that the customer will be able to maintain the exact edge angle that the knife comes with. I don't want the customer to have to struggle to keep the edge sharp. In todays world, it should not be hard to do this.
I'm sure I'll continue to ponder this till the end of my days and may never come to an acceptable reason for why this happens.
Regards, Fred
OP the offer still stands on the degree wedges. No charge, just want to help you out. PM me.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2010
- Messages
- 187
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2011
- Messages
- 290
I feel your anguish my friend and you are not alone. "Hi, I'm Jon and I'm an incompetent freehand sharpener".... "hi Jon". I gave up bought the KME sharpener and HOLY COW! I've got my knives sharper than they've ever been. I mean that elusive "hair popping" sharp. Don't be ashamed, know your strengths/weaknesses and get a guided system.
I'm in the same situation, I can get a perfectly even bevel when sharpening with handle in my right hand, but it's a little harder for me to get same results on the other side of blade using my left hand. I'm just gonna keep practicing & I think I'll get there. If you figure out any tips pls let me know.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 6,642
I use my dominant hand for grip on both sides, so edge toward me and away. When working with the edge away from me I keep the off hand fingertips hooked, so the pressure they apply follows the green arrows - right at the edge.
When working edge toward me, I leave the off hand fingertips straight, pressure still directed right at the edge per the green arrows. In the first image, the larger red circle is my thumb, smaller is index finger, green arrows represent off hand fingertip pressure.
The handle is gripped tight in my lower three fingers as a fulcrum, and the thumb and index apply balancing pressure to either side, with the off hand fingertips helping to keep gentle, uniform contact on the abrasive. I keep the entire knife aligned with my forearm similar to the shooting pool analogy.
This arrangement really helps me detect very small shifts in the angle. Combined with attention to the tactile feel on the edge I have been able to hold very tight tolerances with this set-up - I haven't been able to improve on it in a number of months now. Is similar to many examples of traditional Japanese technique.
If I could reliably use both hands for primary assignment, I'd probably do so, but for me I work way faster and more accurately by using my dominant hand in one assignment both sides, and non-dominant for the other. Per the second image, this also allows me to completely swap grindpaths from leading to trailing to anything in between, all using the same mechanics. I do avoid any dead on perpendicular work, but sometimes its unavoidable - I have far more stability working at a 45°to the cutting edge.
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2014
- Messages
- 24
Does anyone who uses hand stones slice normally with the right hand and then turn the blade upwards? With the blade in this position you can move the stone against the blade. You can use a finger on the spine to stabilise the angle as you draw the stone, just as you can use a thumb behing the blade on the forward stroke.
One advantage of flipping the blade over is you can actually see the burr formation if you are under the light.
Works for me
One advantage of flipping the blade over is you can actually see the burr formation if you are under the light.
Works for me
I think Fred's posting makes a lot of sense. Maybe there needs to be a 'sticky' on 'freehand vs. guided' and this could be included. When I see somebody post 'I have used the Edge Pro (or Wicked Edge) and get better results freehand' I think "... you just said you can't use the Edge Pro (or Wicked Edge) properly."
Good sharpening,
Dave
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2010
- Messages
- 187
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 6,642
I think it makes sense up to a point. Yes it makes sense to use jigs for manufacturing durable goods like tables, primary grinds etc, and in his case even for the edge that leaves his shop. Where it starts to not make sense (to me) is when we talk about edge maintenance or customizing the edge for various tasks at the end user.
A cutting edge is a consumable resource, and it will be consumed at different rates and locations - you don't grind it once and that's that - you can ruin an edge in a heartbeat. I can see the place for guided systems, but I cannot imagine why anyone would not be working in parallel toward freehand competence. Why dedicate yourself to a skill set limited to mechanical interface when you can learn a much more versatile skill set tat applies to all edged cutting tools?
Not to mention field maintenance, what happens when you have a tool that cannot be readily chucked or clamped and you aren't near your belt grinder with guides or leveling jigs? I've mentioned this before, but the machining know how and precision needed to make any of the common guided systems has been around for a looong time yet there are essentially zero historical examples. There are historical examples of other precision goods from the early industrial age on, so one can only presume there was no perceived need.
The issue seems to be a lack of hands on "institutional" sharpening skill being passed along. Most of our great grandmothers could have probably put a good edge on everything from scissors to kitchen knives, and taught us as children. By adulthood a guided system would be a curiosity, interesting but not quite as useful as a shoehorn.
Still, at the EOD, we need our tools to work for us - use what works to make that happen.
Fred Sanford
Gold Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2006
- Messages
- 3,132
How long have you tried? I had similar problems and I bet it took me about 6 months or more to get it down. I only freehand sharpen with DMT stones as well as Spyderco ceramics. I tried and tried and tried for 1-2 years of just trying to get a shaving sharp edge and couldn't get it. Now, I got it. I can make my knives sharper than any of them come from the factory just by freehand sharpening them. Heck now I can take a coarse DMT stone and get a blade shaving sharp on just the coarse stone. I got into knives in 2005 and by 2008 my sharpening had gotten pretty good but still needed improvement. Now.....it's great. I can get edges that are similar to a Wicked Edge and/or Edge pro just by freehanding. Just letting you know if you have the time you can do it.
Time is what you need.
Good points, but I think it puts a lot of weight to doing things "in the field" on a daily basis.
I'd be willing to bet the majority of people who would even consider sharpening their knives would be best served by a mechanical process at "home" that delivers a very accurate result, and can do a decent "touch up" in the field until they can get better results at home.
I think of it this way: on the track, I could use a hand drill to cut a pretty straight hole into a part to effect a repair and keep the car going. The truth, however, is that I could create a damn-near perfect one using a drill press in my shop.
The analogy of substituting hand-machining for CNC work fits the bill quite nicely. So does the idea of using a fence to rip plywood strips on a table saw versus freehanding with a circular saw.
I recognize and appreciate that a skilled person could create a great edge by freehand sharpening and that it's an amazing skill, but the reality is that with a guided system, a non-expert (heck, my ten-year-old) could create an edge with lines that are so precise, you'd think it WAS machine-crafted.
With the right skill and lots of practice, a person could learn to fly an old-school radio-controlled helicopter around a field.
With a little skill and a little practice, a child could outfly them using a new 'copter with gyro control, channel mixing, etc.
Keeping a knife sharp is really not that difficult, but the edge you can achieve using a mechanically optimized process is amazing. There's no denying it.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2015
- Messages
- 951
I to had trouble until I started expiramenting pick up a cheap knife and a cheap stone and just try everything
Make up your own way to do it as long as you get it sharp it doesn't matter how you got there
That's my opinion however the guides that were mentioned above seem like a good idea since you all ready have a big investment in the stones
Make up your own way to do it as long as you get it sharp it doesn't matter how you got there
That's my opinion however the guides that were mentioned above seem like a good idea since you all ready have a big investment in the stones
David have you looked at a KME sharpner ?