Were classic Sheffield made Bowie’s knives good knives?

[not2sharp]

I realize this is an unfair question, that there were many Sheffield makers and each had their own standards of performance. But as often as we ask whether our knives are genuine, we seldom get to discuss whether those genuine knives were good knives.

1) We often hear that collectors and often American frontiersmen favored American made knives.
2) We know that many of the import knives had handles made from thin silver plate over straw and resin fillers.
3) We know that many of them came with sheaths made of cardboard covered with thin leather or paper.

Yes, a lot of them were fancy decorative good looking knives, but we seldom see evidence of heavy use on those same knives. Can a knife be genuine, beautiful, in good condition and still be junk intended only to separate greenhorns from their money? I am asking you because I doubt we are going to see Joe X testing many genuine 1830s Bowie knives to destruction.

Let’s discuss.

I would like to know which patterns and brands were good performers and which fall well short of that. It may be nice to decorate a wall with one of these, but could it be relied on to process game, fend off “savage” Indian attacks, or even simply baton wood to build a cook fire.

N2s

 

[DeadboxHero]

I realize this is an unfair question, that there were many Sheffield makers and each had their own standards of performance. But as often as we ask whether our knives are genuine, we seldom get to discuss whether those genuine knives were good knives.

1) We often hear that collectors and often American frontiersmen favored American made knives.
2) We know that many of the import knives had handles made from thin silver plate over straw and resin fillers.
3) We know that many of them came with sheaths made of cardboard covered with thin leather or paper.

Yes, a lot of them were fancy decorative good looking knives, but we seldom see evidence of heavy use on those same knives. Can a knife be genuine, beautiful, in good condition and still be junk intended only to separate greenhorns from their money? I am asking you because I doubt we are going to see Joe X testing many genuine 1830s Bowie knives to destruction.

Let’s discuss.

I would like to know which patterns and brands were good performers and which fall well short of that. It may be nice to decorate a wall with one of these, but could it be relied on to process game, fend off “savage” Indian attacks, or even simply baton wood to build a cook fire.

N2s

Good topic.

There's more to a knife than destruction testing.

The same reason why we don't have cutting edge retention testing with literal crowbars.

 

[not2sharp]

Good topic.

There's more to a knife than destruction testing.

The same reason why we don't have cutting edge retention testing with literal crowbars.

To me this is more about disinformation. There is a mystic that surrounds the category “genuine Bowie knives” that no one ever talks about. We seem to forget that these items were supposed to be tools and to the extent that some fail to meet that specific purpose, it should be flagged. That’s not to say that anyone should be beating on rare knives, but that to the extent that collectors have encountered failed knives we should know. Just like 99.9% of these knives are either faked or misrepresented, 99.9% of Bowie knife articles emphasize only the positive. I have yet to see anyone talk about factory sheaths that disintegrated during the first week in the rain or knife handles that fell apart upon use. We see those kinds of story about WWII knives in the Pacific, but almost never about the Bowie knives. Was there a theater knife cottage industry during the U.S. Civil War to fix these things? Or was it only greed and malfeasance that forced owners to create “parts knives”? I am not knocking on the knives but it seems we are missing (glossed over) chapters of their history.

N2s

 

[RPZIP]

Well for one thing there is the fact that in the early to late 1800s the grapevine was probably the most likely, and perhaps only way, a lousy knife might get a reputation to avoid it. In the later half there might have been journals etc where writers highlighted some junk knives and recommended others.

First timers might have unwittingly picked up a knife at a store and later find out they had made a mistake. But as is even today, I would image that knowledge of the issue came with experience and in those days careful evaluation at the point of sale.

Aside from general blade and tang construction if the knife had a wood or stag handle it would probably work, and last.

 

[Ebbtide]

I tend to think there were quality levels to fit many budgets.
Much like today.

 

[tltt]

I tend to think there were quality levels to fit many budgets.
Much like today.

This is the correct answer. For every bit of junk, there was Jos. Rodgers, Wostenholm, Woodcock, Thornhill, etc....

.

Lots shown in this video, many very stout.

Also use / lack of use doesn't mean much. How many knives are we not seeing from that era that were used up, lost, etc....? On the flipside, who's to say that the Bowie wasn't skipped over for some other cutting tool? At its heart, the Bowie was a fighting knife. I imagine that much like today, most big knives, especially those with a fighting bend, were skipped over for axes, folders, etc.... for most tasks.

 

[not2sharp]

This is the correct answer. For every bit of junk, there was Jos. Rodgers, Wostenholm, Woodcock, Thornhill, etc....

.

Lots shown in this video, many very stout.

Also use / lack of use doesn't mean much. How many knives are we not seeing from that era that were used up, lost, etc....? On the flipside, who's to say that the Bowie wasn't skipped over for some other cutting tool? At its heart, the Bowie was a fighting knife. I imagine that much like today, most big knives, especially those with a fighting bend, were skipped over for axes, folders, etc.... for most tasks.

There has been plenty of fighting since the 1830s, yet we haven’t seen many of these in the trenches. Just about everything else has been there, including Indo-European hunting knives, but not the classic Bowie’s.

N2s

 

[tltt]

There has been plenty of fighting since the 1830s, yet we haven’t seen many of these in the trenches. Just about everything else has been there, including Indo-European hunting knives, but not the classic Bowie’s.

N2s

You can find Sheffield "Horse-Gator" Bowies that show use, smaller fancy Sheffield Bowies that have seen use, Sheffield Rio Grande Camp knives that show use, simple stag Sheffield Bowie knives ( https://collectorsfirearms.com/product/wostenholm-ixl-bowie-knife-k10252/ ), etc......

Also, most accounts of knife fighting seldom give brands, types, etc.... I've read 100's of period accounts, and 99.9% just say "Bowie", if that.

The true era of the Bowie was short, about 40-50 years, and the era of the fancy Sheffield Bowie was even shorter.

 

[not2sharp]

…First timers might have unwittingly picked up a knife at a store and later find out they had made a mistake. But as is even today, I would image that knowledge of the issue came with experience and in those days careful evaluation at the point of sale…

Which brings us to today. Where we buy these things online in the absence of qualitative review, with limited ability for “evaluation at point of sale”, and usually at exorbitant prices.

Yes, there were excellent knives made by surgical instrument makers, California makers, many other American makers who tended to everything from showpieces to barebones utility items. My concern is primarily with the fancy imported mass produced items. Has anyone ranked these knives (brands) in terms of quality and utility? In many respects these things were designed to deceive, they may have been the equivalent of today’s Pakistan made knives.

N2s

 

[RPZIP]

Which brings us to today. Where we buy these things online in the absence of qualitative review, with limited ability for “evaluation at point of sale”, and usually at exorbitant prices.

Yes, there were excellent knives made by surgical instrument makers, California makers, many other American makers who tended to everything from showpieces to barebones utility items. My concern is primarily with the fancy imported mass produced items. Has anyone ranked these knives (brands) in terms of quality and utility? In many respects these things were designed to deceive, they may have been the equivalent of today’s Pakistan made knives.

N2s

I see your point. Might even have been some enterprising merchants having knives made here and erroneously marked "Sheffield", "Solingen" etc. By the time any word had gotten out that there was no such maker as "Aston & Martin" in Sheffield they may have sold wagonloads of them.

Regardless, I think it would be a monumental task to gather up enough specimens of each available for a meaningful review.

 

[not2sharp]

…Regardless, I think it would be a monumental task to gather up enough specimens of each available for a meaningful review.

I agree and will add that testing 150+ year old relics would be of limited value. The best approach would be to search pioneer diaries from westward caravans to see what they valued and what was discarded.

N2s

 

[Ebbtide]

I tend to think that at the height of the Sheffield Bowie’s popularity the knives were much more of a “man jewelry” or fashion item, than a tool of mayhem and destruction.
Something to be worn out and about town.
Dare I say much like the glitzy, futuristic tactical folders of today?
(Ducks for cover lol).

As for the knives of the pioneers, there was a sunken riverboat that had, IIRC, barrels of Green River knives. The Sultana? The Arabia? Another?
The cargo recovered was a real glimpse into what was being shipped to the edge of the frontier.

 

[RPZIP]

I agree and will add that testing 150+ year old relics would be of limited value. The best approach would be to search pioneer diaries from westward caravans to see what they valued and what was discarded.

N2s

Yes! The best and most meaningful history is diaries, personal letters, local press, period journals and books etc.

 

[DMG]

To me this is more about disinformation. There is a mystic that surrounds the category “genuine Bowie knives” that no one ever talks about. We seem to forget that these items were supposed to be tools and to the extent that some fail to meet that specific purpose, it should be flagged. That’s not to say that anyone should be beating on rare knives, but that to the extent that collectors have encountered failed knives we should know. Just like 99.9% of these knives are either faked or misrepresented, 99.9% of Bowie knife articles emphasize only the positive. I have yet to see anyone talk about factory sheaths that disintegrated during the first week in the rain or knife handles that fell apart upon use. We see those kinds of story about WWII knives in the Pacific, but almost never about the Bowie knives. Was there a theater knife cottage industry during the U.S. Civil War to fix these things? Or was it only greed and malfeasance that forced owners to create “parts knives”? I am not knocking on the knives but it seems we are missing (glossed over) chapters of their history.

N2s

100 + years ago, if I have a good blade and the handle fails, I'll find a way to put a handle on it. Same with a sheath. I doubt I would take up quill and ink to leave any lasting recor of my troubles.

 

[not2sharp]

100 + years ago, if I have a good blade and the handle fails, I'll find a way to put a handle on it. Same with a sheath. I doubt I would take up quill and ink to leave any lasting recor of my troubles.

Which raises the question, where are all of these modified knives?

n2s

 

[DMG]

Which raises the question, where are all of these modified knives?

n2s

They are at the next stage after this.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I recall seeing a well worn frontier knife at the Jim Gatchell Memorial Museum in Buffalo, Wyoming. It resembled an ordinary butcher knife, and was sharpened on one side, i.e., with a chisel edge. Apparently that was a common practice.

 

[RPZIP]

100 + years ago, if I have a good blade and the handle fails, I'll find a way to put a handle on it. Same with a sheath. I doubt I would take up quill and ink to leave any lasting recor of my troubles.

Read enough material and you will find plenty of remarks about one item or another. Just as soldiers, sailors and airmen have commented or been quoted in writings over one item, piece of gear or another going back a long way.