Were Japanese swords tempered?

BigJimSlade said:
You have this backwards. Samurai swords were thicker to begin with. .
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OH?

"It was the attempted Mongol invasions of 1274 and 1281 that the japanese nation faced its greatest military crisis. In the first action it was saved by a great storm which sank the intire Mongol fleet.
In preparation for a second invasion the Bakufu sent edicts to every province ordering great efforts to be made to imporve naval defenses and military capability.
One of the results of these efforts a magnificent new style of sword with it's great width and thickness at the ridgeline."
(The Japanese Sword, page 54)

What we see then is that before the Mongol wars the swords of the Japanese were not really aimed at fighting someone who was wearing much of any armor.
(On page 29 of this book you see what was a design of the very early swords in Japan...a long but knida thin blade. )

Another basic change to the design of the Japanese sword is that we see the introduction of a ridge line in later swords, whereas the early swords lacked a ridge and were flat sided.

When the Mongols came to Japan they made use of very heavy armor and liked to use horses, and thus the weapons the Japanese started to make at that time also reflected the basic change in the way wars were being faught.
The Mongols didnt stop to meet the people they were going to fight, and introduce themselves and talk about their family history as was common amoung the Japanese.
 
While what you say is quite true, the swords in the mongol invasion were the precussers to the tachi. I think I was confused about your timeline. I agree that earlier swords form the countries history were indead different but I didnt associate them with samurai.
"One of the results of these efforts a magnificent new style of sword with it's great width and thickness at the ridgeline"
I would consider this type sword the precurser to the Tachi and then the katana if I am not mistaken. This is the style of sword I was reffering to as being the thicker "earlier" swords and compared to those of the edo period, when the samurai flurished. During this time the armor they had worn in the fuedal conflicts gave way to cloth and thinner swords.

My appologies we seem to simply be on different pages of the same book.
 
My fault, I didnt really know how to spell "mongol" when I wrote my first post about how the new swords got thicker over the early swords...
Allan Molstad said:
However the design of swords in Japan changed very fast when they were attacked from off-island by guys who did wear thick armor
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Allan Molstad said:
"It was the attempted Mongol invasions ......One of the results of these efforts a magnificent new style of sword with it's great width and thickness at the ridgeline."
(The Japanese Sword, page 54)
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"There's plenty of people who would question the superiority of the Japanese sword in the first place.

I think it was in one of Jim Hrisoulas's books that I read about the edge being full hard (not tempered), and prone to chipping."

http://tmac-sd.com/sword_nakamura.htm

The myth that samurai swords can cut a machinegun barrel in half and still shave is silly but so is the idea that they werent and still are amazing swords. If you will notice the 3rd cut down through bambo made with a antique katana. I have inspected the sword in question and it has no chipping. The fact is that most americans with substandard notions about katanas have never handled a good one. A Shin-Ken commisioned today costs around 20,000 by one of Japanse top smiths not to mention the wait (dont forget that that is blade only, still need to handle it with apropriate futrniture and get a saya made). Some makers still smelt and rake the metal the exact same way it was done in the past. The fact is that in ancient Japan things werent much different. The best of the swords from that period are amazing works of art and were only available to high ranking people. There are not alot of good examples of the highest quality Katanas around for people to inspect or critisize. This is like taking a coldsteel sword and saying it is indicitive of a Walley hayes Katana. Apples and oranges. No other sword in history took as much abuse and still retained such a keen cutting edge. If one knows how to properly block and parry constant sword on sowrd abuse will result in no dammage to the sword. Of course in real battle that is not always possible and dammage to your blade is better than yourself. Also 90% of what is on the antique katana market are swords banged out for WWII issue. These are usually junk and play alont into the bad rep katanas have with some people.
 
Hehe, yeah I didnt catch that you were talking about the mongol invaders since my head was trapped in later Japan while reading. Now that I read it you actually did a good job of paraphrasing. I was just to far out of context.

I think the earlier swords were heavily influnced form the chinese and there thin bendy kungfu weapons. Never could get into that type of sword fighting but it makes for some kick butt movies.

I should pick up the book you are qouting. Most of my sword books are philisophical (Takuan, Mushashi in 13 translations ect.).
 
Takuan was a samurai and a monk. The shogun built him a dojo in his backyard. He was made a monk by a buhdist monk who saw him save a woman bieng held hostage at knife point by removing his swords and using clever nonviolent intervension to disarm the man. Laying down your swords was not something that was done, especially not to save a woman. He exemplifies the zen swordsman. He has written quite a few books that have been translated. "The sword and the mind" is often available at book stores with a good martial arts section.

Mushashi was the best swordsman in japan and possibly the world. After a massively sucefull military career he went on to form a school of sword fighting and become the most renowned duelist in Japans history. He was the opposite of Takuan, an uncempt mess in his later years (apearance only). To thumb his nose at societal norms imo. After winning his last 20 duels (to the death of course) with wooden boken he retired to a cave to live out his life and write "the book of the 5 rings". I have every translation i could lay hands on because they are all slightly different. My chances of learning to read/write japanese at this point in my life are slim :P

Musashi was a monster in battle, cutting down man after man without thought or pause. Takuan so peacefull he was often able to percieve peoples intentions well before they moved, both in life and battle. It is very interesting to read the thoughts of such different masters of the sword. If only we could get a head to head skirmish on pay per view. I find it interesting as well that so many movie, story and video game men are based on real people who are more remarkable than can be expressed by the action genre.
 
Many, I think about 4-5 are in print in english. "The sword and the mind" would be the easiest to find. He has many more in japanese. He also invented a pickled daikon that you can try on sushi that is now named after him. Soho was hi last name. Miyamoto was Musashis first name.

EDIT: "The unfettered mind" is the book I was thinking of by Takuan Soho.
"The sword and the mind" is by Yagyu Muenori
Thanks to fitzo for catching my mistake!
 
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