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Weren't we supposed to see some x-rays of MD tangs?
- Thread starter Uncle Bill
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Not sure what happened to that, but the point is a moot one.
The only way it would mean anything is to get a series of knives from the same production time frame as the one we have. As production methods change, so do the needs for the particular processes. Hand grinding doesn't have the same requirements as machine grinding, etc.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
The only way it would mean anything is to get a series of knives from the same production time frame as the one we have. As production methods change, so do the needs for the particular processes. Hand grinding doesn't have the same requirements as machine grinding, etc.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
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Jim 'Gonesailing' has x-rayed the tangs, and is forwarding the x-rays, along with the second gen ATAK2, to Mike Turber. The initial x-rays that I did will also be forwarded by Jim to Mike.
I recently asked Mike if he still wanted to test the ATAK2, and he indicated that he did indeed wish to do that.
Hope this clarifies matters, Walt
I recently asked Mike if he still wanted to test the ATAK2, and he indicated that he did indeed wish to do that.
Hope this clarifies matters, Walt
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That's pretty funny Steve. From people who say "Oh, the knife was old" "Oh it was stolen or a reject, or a shop knife", you are saying that because the newer ones are made differantly, they are valid?
Find us some Mad Dog's of the same time period that ours were produced. Not before, not after. Then we'll see if they really are "reject marks".
If your Mad Dog knife didn't come from the same time frame, and have the same production methods, then guess what? It may not have the marks! Suprise suprise! I mean, if they have different plunge lines, maybe they have different tang marks as well. Feel free to refer to Cougar Allens posts in the appropriate threads.
Oh, and Steve, please show me where I called him a liar. I did point out how his statements don't make much sense and lack any sort of credibility, however, I will say that. But thats fine, you can ask him yourself. After all, if he didn't have time to post during this, he must have found a whole lot of time now to start up a new forums site. Must of gotten all those backorders that were keeping him from the keyboard taken care of really quick. Make sure you ask him where all that steel went to from the "SuperKnife" project, after all, several mill runs take up a lot of space.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 16 November 1999).]
Find us some Mad Dog's of the same time period that ours were produced. Not before, not after. Then we'll see if they really are "reject marks".
If your Mad Dog knife didn't come from the same time frame, and have the same production methods, then guess what? It may not have the marks! Suprise suprise! I mean, if they have different plunge lines, maybe they have different tang marks as well. Feel free to refer to Cougar Allens posts in the appropriate threads.
Oh, and Steve, please show me where I called him a liar. I did point out how his statements don't make much sense and lack any sort of credibility, however, I will say that. But thats fine, you can ask him yourself. After all, if he didn't have time to post during this, he must have found a whole lot of time now to start up a new forums site. Must of gotten all those backorders that were keeping him from the keyboard taken care of really quick. Make sure you ask him where all that steel went to from the "SuperKnife" project, after all, several mill runs take up a lot of space.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 16 November 1999).]
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Spark; during our conference call, you and Mike agreed that taking x-rays of my second gen ATAK2 and a second gen Shrike would resolve the issue of the notches. This is from my post on the matter, on the Mad Dog Update #4 thread:
Spark; our agreement was that the issue of notches would be resolved if a second gen ATAK2 and second gen Shrike failed to show notches. Just to help further clarify the results, I tossed in my first gen ATAK2, the same type as Mike tested.
Now it seems you have reneged on your agreement; not only do you wish a first gen knife tested, but you want more than one tested. Further, you state:
As noted above, I am fulfilling my part of the agreement. Jim is sending the second gen ATAK2 and all the x-rays to Mike. Would you kindly explain why you reneged on our agreement, drastically changing your terms even while I was keeping my part of the bargain?
Best regards, Walt
Spark; our agreement was that the issue of notches would be resolved if a second gen ATAK2 and second gen Shrike failed to show notches. Just to help further clarify the results, I tossed in my first gen ATAK2, the same type as Mike tested.
Now it seems you have reneged on your agreement; not only do you wish a first gen knife tested, but you want more than one tested. Further, you state:
As noted above, I am fulfilling my part of the agreement. Jim is sending the second gen ATAK2 and all the x-rays to Mike. Would you kindly explain why you reneged on our agreement, drastically changing your terms even while I was keeping my part of the bargain?
Best regards, Walt
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Walt, glad you just called.
Since the knife you are sending does not have the notchs that you mentioned, we are both in agreement that it fits the "definition" of a "real" Mad Dog knife.
As such, we will be more than happy to test it and post the results.
Does this solve the notch issue? Yes and no. Yes, we know that the knife you are sending fits the definition of a "real" Mad Dog knife. No, we don't know for sure that the notches mean the knife is a fake / reject / stolen / shop knife. I'll be the first to admit, the fact that the knife features the machine grinds, matching sheath, etc lends credibility to the claims. I personally would like to know what age the MD we have is, and would like to see other samples from the same time frame (which is anywhere from 3-9 years old by best guess).
So, if the "genuine Mad Dog" issue is settled, we now have another problem, how many fake / reject / stolen / shop Mad Dogs made it out into the market, to the point that the only 2 that had handles cut off featured the notches? Don't ask me, I don't have a clue, it's just one amazing coincidence.
We have already sent the knife in question out for RC testing, we'll see what turns up with that, that should show if it failed heat treat. We'll post the results, good or bad, as always.
As for "reneging" on the agreement - the agreement still stands as far as I know. Send us a genuine Mad Dog knife, and we'll perform the tests again. We have every intention of doing the tests, and are more than happy to let anyone around here (in FL) witness them.
Does this conclusively prove that the one we had is a fake? No. Does it prove that the one Nam Viet Vo had was a fake? No. Does it lend credence to the claim? Yes, only if it's from the same time period that the one we have is made from. Different methods of production have differant requirements, and if the notchs were there for something other than to mark it's a fake, it should show up in others from the time period. Otherwise comparing manufacturing methods isn't valid, hand ground versus partially machine ground versus machine ground is apples to oranges. It's that simple.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 16 November 1999).]
Since the knife you are sending does not have the notchs that you mentioned, we are both in agreement that it fits the "definition" of a "real" Mad Dog knife.
As such, we will be more than happy to test it and post the results.
Does this solve the notch issue? Yes and no. Yes, we know that the knife you are sending fits the definition of a "real" Mad Dog knife. No, we don't know for sure that the notches mean the knife is a fake / reject / stolen / shop knife. I'll be the first to admit, the fact that the knife features the machine grinds, matching sheath, etc lends credibility to the claims. I personally would like to know what age the MD we have is, and would like to see other samples from the same time frame (which is anywhere from 3-9 years old by best guess).
So, if the "genuine Mad Dog" issue is settled, we now have another problem, how many fake / reject / stolen / shop Mad Dogs made it out into the market, to the point that the only 2 that had handles cut off featured the notches? Don't ask me, I don't have a clue, it's just one amazing coincidence.
We have already sent the knife in question out for RC testing, we'll see what turns up with that, that should show if it failed heat treat. We'll post the results, good or bad, as always.
As for "reneging" on the agreement - the agreement still stands as far as I know. Send us a genuine Mad Dog knife, and we'll perform the tests again. We have every intention of doing the tests, and are more than happy to let anyone around here (in FL) witness them.
Does this conclusively prove that the one we had is a fake? No. Does it prove that the one Nam Viet Vo had was a fake? No. Does it lend credence to the claim? Yes, only if it's from the same time period that the one we have is made from. Different methods of production have differant requirements, and if the notchs were there for something other than to mark it's a fake, it should show up in others from the time period. Otherwise comparing manufacturing methods isn't valid, hand ground versus partially machine ground versus machine ground is apples to oranges. It's that simple.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 16 November 1999).]
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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There seems to be some confusion about just what question x-raying the MDK Walt is providing for testing resolved.... The x-rays resolved the question of whether the argument that the first test was invalid (because it only proved a secretly marked reject MDK had a brittle edge) would also apply to the second test. That question had to be resolved before we'd know if the second test would be any more valid than the first, and it has been.
Now a reasonable person might assume Walt's knife is not a reject and the second test will be more informative now we know it's a test of a non-notched MDK. No doubt if Mad Dog marked some of his rejects in different ways, perhaps with invisible ink that only shows up in ultraviolet light or requires a special chemical to make it visible, a reasonable person might assume he'll tell us about the other secret markings for rejects after the test results are posted.
Now we know that of five MDKs tested for edge brittleness so far, three have been found brittle and two found not brittle (two TUSKs tested by Cliff Stamp, one ATAK tested by Mike Turber, one Arizona Hunter tested by Arnistador and Joe Talmadge, one tested by Steve Harvey (at the moment I don't remember what model that was ... a Lab Rat?). When Mike has tested Walt's knife we'll have six datum points, and likely other MDK owners will be testing their knives and posting results. Eventually we might even get up to statistically significant numbers and be able to say with confidence that X% of MDKs have brittle edges -- and if we can x-ray enough of them, we'll be able to compile separate statistics for notched MDKs and non-notched; that might be very useful to anyone who is contemplating the purchase of an MDK and is able to x-ray it before purchase, or assured he can return it if x-rays taken after purchase reveal notches.
We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity, of course, do not believe the notched MDKs are secretly marked rejects. We believe they are flying saucer keys, and we believe anyone who tries to chop wood with a key and then complains the key was damaged by it must be an idiot. We believe tools should only be tested for their designed purposes, and we are not interested in testing keys to see if they're any good for chopping hardwood.
We are, however, interested in x-raying as many MDKs as possible to find out what percentage of MDKs are Mad Dog Knives and what percentage are Mad Dog Keys. We want to know the total number of Mad Dog Keys in circulation so we can use that figure to estimate the number of flying saucers that will land when the Great Day arrives -- a matter of hot theological dispute.
-from The Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity of Voracious Truth
Now a reasonable person might assume Walt's knife is not a reject and the second test will be more informative now we know it's a test of a non-notched MDK. No doubt if Mad Dog marked some of his rejects in different ways, perhaps with invisible ink that only shows up in ultraviolet light or requires a special chemical to make it visible, a reasonable person might assume he'll tell us about the other secret markings for rejects after the test results are posted.
Now we know that of five MDKs tested for edge brittleness so far, three have been found brittle and two found not brittle (two TUSKs tested by Cliff Stamp, one ATAK tested by Mike Turber, one Arizona Hunter tested by Arnistador and Joe Talmadge, one tested by Steve Harvey (at the moment I don't remember what model that was ... a Lab Rat?). When Mike has tested Walt's knife we'll have six datum points, and likely other MDK owners will be testing their knives and posting results. Eventually we might even get up to statistically significant numbers and be able to say with confidence that X% of MDKs have brittle edges -- and if we can x-ray enough of them, we'll be able to compile separate statistics for notched MDKs and non-notched; that might be very useful to anyone who is contemplating the purchase of an MDK and is able to x-ray it before purchase, or assured he can return it if x-rays taken after purchase reveal notches.
We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity, of course, do not believe the notched MDKs are secretly marked rejects. We believe they are flying saucer keys, and we believe anyone who tries to chop wood with a key and then complains the key was damaged by it must be an idiot. We believe tools should only be tested for their designed purposes, and we are not interested in testing keys to see if they're any good for chopping hardwood.
We are, however, interested in x-raying as many MDKs as possible to find out what percentage of MDKs are Mad Dog Knives and what percentage are Mad Dog Keys. We want to know the total number of Mad Dog Keys in circulation so we can use that figure to estimate the number of flying saucers that will land when the Great Day arrives -- a matter of hot theological dispute.
-from The Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity of Voracious Truth
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Spark; I think that you have missed what I was trying to say. When I agreed to do the x-rays, you and Mike were postulating that the notches were present on all MD knives, being used to hold the knife in some sort of jig, to align them for machining.
This is what I did the x-rays, and had additional x-rays done for: to see if all MD's had them. You and Mike agreed that if the notches did not show up on a second gen ATAK2, and a second gen Shrike, that the notches were not present as a matter of course, and thus were not used for machining of the knives. This finding would support Kevin's claim that they were a sign of a defective knive. I added a first gen knife for further validity of the test.
In point of fact, FOUR first gen Mad Dogs were x-rayed by me; three ATAK2s and a AZ hunter. None showed notches on my x-rays, or on Jim's additional x-rays (of the three agreed upon knives), except for the atypical finding on the first gen ATAK2, which appeared to be a small ding, in a location differing from where the notches were located, and also showed up on my x-ray. Then, without contacting me, you changed your position:
This is diametrically opposed to our agreement, in which only second gen knives would be x-rayed, and if no notches were found, you and Mike would drop your claims that the notches were part of a normal production procedure. You mentioned on the second conference call to me that 'new information' prompted your change in position. I fail to see what this information is, and at any rate, if you felt you needed to change the conditions of our agreement, you should have contacted me.
Well, I have four first gen knives; one has been x-rayed by both Jim and me, and found to be without notches. I can send the other first gen knives to Jim, but fail to see the good that doing so would accomplish, since you seem to feel you can change your position at whim.
It seems to me that you should honor your agreement. Admit that the notches found on the knife Mike tested are NOT production marks. You have, commendably, already agreed that the second gen ATAK2 Jim is sending to Mike is a genuine Mad Dog. I await the objective testing of this knife with interest.
For you to continue to change the conditions which would satisfy you regarding the aberrancy of the notches is to bring your objectivity into serious question.
I agree that it is a very amazing coincidence that the two Mad Dogs to have their handles cut off had notches. An even more amazing coincidence that the two people who obtained the knives for testing have serious bad feelings towards Kevin.
However, I am willing to accept it as a coincidence, if you and Mike agree to stand by the terms of our initial arrangement.
I await your reply respectfully, Walt
This is what I did the x-rays, and had additional x-rays done for: to see if all MD's had them. You and Mike agreed that if the notches did not show up on a second gen ATAK2, and a second gen Shrike, that the notches were not present as a matter of course, and thus were not used for machining of the knives. This finding would support Kevin's claim that they were a sign of a defective knive. I added a first gen knife for further validity of the test.
In point of fact, FOUR first gen Mad Dogs were x-rayed by me; three ATAK2s and a AZ hunter. None showed notches on my x-rays, or on Jim's additional x-rays (of the three agreed upon knives), except for the atypical finding on the first gen ATAK2, which appeared to be a small ding, in a location differing from where the notches were located, and also showed up on my x-ray. Then, without contacting me, you changed your position:
This is diametrically opposed to our agreement, in which only second gen knives would be x-rayed, and if no notches were found, you and Mike would drop your claims that the notches were part of a normal production procedure. You mentioned on the second conference call to me that 'new information' prompted your change in position. I fail to see what this information is, and at any rate, if you felt you needed to change the conditions of our agreement, you should have contacted me.
Well, I have four first gen knives; one has been x-rayed by both Jim and me, and found to be without notches. I can send the other first gen knives to Jim, but fail to see the good that doing so would accomplish, since you seem to feel you can change your position at whim.
It seems to me that you should honor your agreement. Admit that the notches found on the knife Mike tested are NOT production marks. You have, commendably, already agreed that the second gen ATAK2 Jim is sending to Mike is a genuine Mad Dog. I await the objective testing of this knife with interest.
For you to continue to change the conditions which would satisfy you regarding the aberrancy of the notches is to bring your objectivity into serious question.
I agree that it is a very amazing coincidence that the two Mad Dogs to have their handles cut off had notches. An even more amazing coincidence that the two people who obtained the knives for testing have serious bad feelings towards Kevin.
However, I am willing to accept it as a coincidence, if you and Mike agree to stand by the terms of our initial arrangement.
I await your reply respectfully, Walt
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Walt, if you assume that I have bad feeling toward Kevin then you are wrong. Kevin has bad feeling toward me because I converted one of his fixed blade to a folder. I believe Mad Dog's warrantee sucks, not Kevin himself. I have always hated the big choil on all Mad Dog knives, but I respect his design as an artist (meaning Kevin). I gain squat by putting any body down on this forum.
I agree that we need to find out whether the notch means any thing or not. I saw the notch on my own knife which I no longer possess. So far, I have not made any conclusion one way or another. Keep in mind that your knives are not the run of the mill ATAK also.
I agree that we need to find out whether the notch means any thing or not. I saw the notch on my own knife which I no longer possess. So far, I have not made any conclusion one way or another. Keep in mind that your knives are not the run of the mill ATAK also.
Cougar Allen
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I don't recall anyone predicting notches would be found on all MDKs, only the ones made during the period he was doing machine grinding. (Likely not all of them, either; there are various ways to clamp a knife while you grind it; notches might be different at different times and would not necessarily be present at all even on knives made by machine grinding; they could be clamped without making notches first and that would likely be considered an improvement in production methods, saving that step -- or adding notches could have been an improvement for better indexing; the sequence could have gone either way and it's not uncommon for production methods to change back and forth for various reasons -- a machine breaks and you have to go back to using the old machine for a while, etc.)
I can hardly imagine anyone agreeing that if any MDKs were found to have no notches they would then pretend to believe the notches look like they were made to mark a rejected blade....
Even if anyone did make such an agreement in a private communication, I certainly didn't. The Voracious Truth can no longer be covered up -- those notched blades are not knives, and testing a key to see how well it can chop wood is ridiculous!
Anyway, what do you care what anyone says about Mad Dog Keys, Walt? You don't have any financial interest in MDK, do you? Why would you make any agreement with Mike and Spark to try to shut them up?
Has Walt's brain been taken over by the Ministry of Darkness? I demand his brain be x-rayed for mind-control devices as soon as possible! The enemy is insidious and they will stop at nothing. I only hope the mind-control device can be deactivated without dangerous brain surgery.
If you can hear me, Walt, if you retain any independant thought at all -- use your will-power! Go to the kitchen and get some aluminum foil and wrap it around your head -- that will block the insidious mind-control rays and you will be able to think for yourself again.
I for one am not going to trust anything Walt says until I see recent x-rays of his brain and a recent photo of him wearing a foil-lined beanie.
The safest way is to get inside a metal cistern -- all the way inside it, so your head is protected too -- and then close the lid so the insidious mind-control rays can't reach you. Trust me, I know whereof I speak....
-Wholly Brother Cougar :{)
I can hardly imagine anyone agreeing that if any MDKs were found to have no notches they would then pretend to believe the notches look like they were made to mark a rejected blade....
Even if anyone did make such an agreement in a private communication, I certainly didn't. The Voracious Truth can no longer be covered up -- those notched blades are not knives, and testing a key to see how well it can chop wood is ridiculous!
Anyway, what do you care what anyone says about Mad Dog Keys, Walt? You don't have any financial interest in MDK, do you? Why would you make any agreement with Mike and Spark to try to shut them up?
Has Walt's brain been taken over by the Ministry of Darkness? I demand his brain be x-rayed for mind-control devices as soon as possible! The enemy is insidious and they will stop at nothing. I only hope the mind-control device can be deactivated without dangerous brain surgery.
If you can hear me, Walt, if you retain any independant thought at all -- use your will-power! Go to the kitchen and get some aluminum foil and wrap it around your head -- that will block the insidious mind-control rays and you will be able to think for yourself again.
I for one am not going to trust anything Walt says until I see recent x-rays of his brain and a recent photo of him wearing a foil-lined beanie.
The safest way is to get inside a metal cistern -- all the way inside it, so your head is protected too -- and then close the lid so the insidious mind-control rays can't reach you. Trust me, I know whereof I speak....
-Wholly Brother Cougar :{)
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NamViet Vo; I stand corrected. I was basing my belief on my recollection of the posts you exchanged with Kevin about making the Mongoose into a folder.
Cougar; here is what happened. I had a conference call with Mike and Spark, and they expressed their belief that all MD's had these notches on the tangs, as they were part of the machining process. By this time, I had already performed x-rays on 12 knives, which didn't show the notches, but my technique and interpertation was called into question. So, I asked them what it would take to settle this question of notches with regards to further x-rays; I explained that it was difficult for me to do them, as I was depending on my local vet to do them for me as a courtesy.
Mike and Spark said they would be satisfied if my second gen ATAK2 and my second gen Shrike had no notches. They alone made these choices from all my knives. As I mentioned before, Jim 'Gonesailing' agreed to do more x-ray views, and I decided to toss in my first gen ATAK2 just for a further data point.
It was not then, nor is it now, my intention to 'shut them up.' I was merely trying to prove or disprove their hypothesis, and supply Mike with a genuine Mad Dog ATAK2, so that the tests Mike did would be meaningful.
Thus, since I fulfilled my part of the agreement, and Spark has since decided that the data he had agreed would be sufficient is, in fact, not sufficient, I feel that he violated the terms of our agreement.
I have no financial arrangement with Mad Dog Knives, or WOW, Inc.
As far as flying saucer keys go, Cougar....SECURITY OVERRIDE PROGRAM INITIATED. And that is all I have to say.
Walt
Cougar; here is what happened. I had a conference call with Mike and Spark, and they expressed their belief that all MD's had these notches on the tangs, as they were part of the machining process. By this time, I had already performed x-rays on 12 knives, which didn't show the notches, but my technique and interpertation was called into question. So, I asked them what it would take to settle this question of notches with regards to further x-rays; I explained that it was difficult for me to do them, as I was depending on my local vet to do them for me as a courtesy.
Mike and Spark said they would be satisfied if my second gen ATAK2 and my second gen Shrike had no notches. They alone made these choices from all my knives. As I mentioned before, Jim 'Gonesailing' agreed to do more x-ray views, and I decided to toss in my first gen ATAK2 just for a further data point.
It was not then, nor is it now, my intention to 'shut them up.' I was merely trying to prove or disprove their hypothesis, and supply Mike with a genuine Mad Dog ATAK2, so that the tests Mike did would be meaningful.
Thus, since I fulfilled my part of the agreement, and Spark has since decided that the data he had agreed would be sufficient is, in fact, not sufficient, I feel that he violated the terms of our agreement.
I have no financial arrangement with Mad Dog Knives, or WOW, Inc.
As far as flying saucer keys go, Cougar....SECURITY OVERRIDE PROGRAM INITIATED. And that is all I have to say.
Walt
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Mike and Spark; you sent the test ATAK2 to an outside laboratory for Rc testing.
Did you make arrangements for removal of the hard chrome plating before this testing? I could be wrong, but I think that the Rc test, which is a test of surface hardness, could be artificially high if the hard chrome were left on. Can some posters with knowledge in this area comment?
Forever in search of truth and righteousness, Walt
Did you make arrangements for removal of the hard chrome plating before this testing? I could be wrong, but I think that the Rc test, which is a test of surface hardness, could be artificially high if the hard chrome were left on. Can some posters with knowledge in this area comment?
Forever in search of truth and righteousness, Walt
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That's the nice thing about postulates and hypothesis, Walt, just because one doesn't fit, doesn't mean that every other one has to be thrown out the window. As new information comes in, you change your hypothesis to reflect it. You know, postulatation, hypothesis, antithesis, thesis, and back to square one until you have the facts. You know that as well as I do, Walt, you've got more of a science background.
Anyhow, I just talked to Mike about this and neither one of us remember agreeing that if notches weren't found, it was a conclusive sign that the knife we have was a reject.
What we do remember saying is that we believe that notches would show up on knives from the same run ours came from. We both also remember saying that we thought that the notches were there to hold the knife blade in a jig for manufacturing, as that makes more sense (and is what they look like they are there for, this coming from each maker we've asked to guess what the notches are for).
We also remember saying that the notches probably aren't on several runs of knives (especially the current ones) since they are hand made now, instead of partially machine made.
But neither of us remember saying that if the notches didn't show up, we'd agree that the knife we have is a fake, but rather that the knife you have is 100% genuine.
Let's look at it from a simple Yes / No question viewpoint:
So, does this prove that the knife that we have is a "fake" Mad Dog? No, it just proves that the one we have has notchs and the ones you have doesn't.
So, lets look at the claim that the notches make the knife a fake and ask some Yes / No questions:
So, we've conclusively proved that not every Mad Dog knife has a notch in the tang. We've proved that several generations do not have notches. We have proved that there are several knives out there *with* notches in the tangs. I'll freely admit that.
We just haven't proved the relevance of the notches to to the knife.
Allen Blade stated that when he worked with Mad Dog, they put notches on all four corners of the knife to give the glue more surface area. Take that for what it's worth as well.
I'm sorry, Walt, but it's going to take a bit more than Mad Dog's word that the notches mean the knife is a reject to convince me. There's too much evidence that raises doubt with that statement, and he's made contradictory claims often before, there are lots of examples (SuperSteel, no handle failures, 6 warranty returns, no chipping ever, etc). So, Walt, I don't think *anyone* knows for sure what the notches really are, other than Mad Dog, and his explanation isn't extremely credible IMHO. We've sent the knife off to a university for RC testing, that should answer the heat treating question. And no, we haven't made arrangements to remove the hard chrome, but as soon as we know they have the knife, we'll make sure to tell them to remove it.
Anyhow, please, someone ask Kevin the following questions:
Why does he sometimes put notches on the rejects, and sometimes doesn't?
Why does he put them where the handle would go, so they are effectively hidden?
How many reject knives are out there, if both Nam and us got ones with notches?
Is the knife a reject, or a fake, or a shop knife, or stolen?
He's got his own forums, lord knows it wouldn't be hard to ask these questions. I'm seeing a disturbing lack of interest in finding out these answers by those who would question our integrity, but find his to be exemplary.
I don't think that NamViet Vo has serious bad feelings about Kevin, but I can't speak for him. I do know that he's bought a lot of his knives though, so that would make him credible as a valid customer... then again, anytime anyone says anything negative about a Mad Dog knife they are clearly part of the vast conspiracy.
Walt, both Mike and myself are willing to retest an ATAK. Nam's bringing his, you are sending yours, so somewhere, some how, we will have what is no doubt a genuine Mad Dog knife to test. And we'll report the findings. Who knows what will happen then.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Anyhow, I just talked to Mike about this and neither one of us remember agreeing that if notches weren't found, it was a conclusive sign that the knife we have was a reject.
What we do remember saying is that we believe that notches would show up on knives from the same run ours came from. We both also remember saying that we thought that the notches were there to hold the knife blade in a jig for manufacturing, as that makes more sense (and is what they look like they are there for, this coming from each maker we've asked to guess what the notches are for).
We also remember saying that the notches probably aren't on several runs of knives (especially the current ones) since they are hand made now, instead of partially machine made.
But neither of us remember saying that if the notches didn't show up, we'd agree that the knife we have is a fake, but rather that the knife you have is 100% genuine.
Let's look at it from a simple Yes / No question viewpoint:
- Are there notches on every Mad Dog Knife? No The multiple Xrays prove that.
- Does this support Kevin's claim? Yes
- Does it prove Kevin's claim to be true? No All it proves is that not all Mad Dog Knives have notches. It does lend credibility to the claim.
- Do we conclusively know from what time period the knife we tested came from? No Unfortunately, we have yet to get a straight answer on that. All we do know for sure is that it's partially machine ground and is between 3-9 years old. That's a lot of leeway.
- Do we know for sure that the knives you xrayed came from the same time period? No
- Did multiple people only xray their knives at a perpendicular view and not show notches? Yes
- Did we find out that the knives must be xrayed at an oblique to pick them up? Yes, thowing the previous questions findings away.
So, does this prove that the knife that we have is a "fake" Mad Dog? No, it just proves that the one we have has notchs and the ones you have doesn't.
So, lets look at the claim that the notches make the knife a fake and ask some Yes / No questions:
- Does it make sense to make 2 radially symetric notches at the base of the tang, where it would be hidden by the handle, when you could make 1 on the spine where it wouldn't? No Why do extra work? Out of 10 knifemakers questioned, not one would have done anything like this.
- Can anyone else corroborate that the notches are put on when the knife is a reject? No As a matter of fact, several people have said otherwise. In my conversations with Bill Perches and Tim Lau, neither commented that they watched him notch the tangs on rejects, just toss them into a pile. Allen Blade said that rejects were destroyed immediately. Not one person has yet to come forward and say, "I've watched him do this when he's had a reject knife!" So, he's not even consistant with how he handles rejects.
- Mad Dog and Mrs. Mad Dog both stated that they (Mad Dog Knives) had a problem that lasted 2+ years with employees stealing blades / rejects / whatever and selling them finished. Does it make sense to continue marking the reject knives the same way? No Get real. You have to be kidding.
- Does it make sense to wait a full month after the first picture is posted of the Mad Dog knife's tang to suddenly burst forth that the knife is a reject / stolen / fake / shop knife? No Why wait until later, instead of saying it immediately?
- Have we heard multiple stories about what the notches signify? Yes Thus far we've heard that the knife was a reject, it failed heat treating, or was a shop knife and God knows what else (I've forgotten). Why not pick one story and stick to it?
- Has Mad Dog had ample opportunity to answer any question that has been brought up since he made these statements? Yes
- Has he done so? No Why? Your guess is as good as mine.
So, we've conclusively proved that not every Mad Dog knife has a notch in the tang. We've proved that several generations do not have notches. We have proved that there are several knives out there *with* notches in the tangs. I'll freely admit that.
We just haven't proved the relevance of the notches to to the knife.
Allen Blade stated that when he worked with Mad Dog, they put notches on all four corners of the knife to give the glue more surface area. Take that for what it's worth as well.
I'm sorry, Walt, but it's going to take a bit more than Mad Dog's word that the notches mean the knife is a reject to convince me. There's too much evidence that raises doubt with that statement, and he's made contradictory claims often before, there are lots of examples (SuperSteel, no handle failures, 6 warranty returns, no chipping ever, etc). So, Walt, I don't think *anyone* knows for sure what the notches really are, other than Mad Dog, and his explanation isn't extremely credible IMHO. We've sent the knife off to a university for RC testing, that should answer the heat treating question. And no, we haven't made arrangements to remove the hard chrome, but as soon as we know they have the knife, we'll make sure to tell them to remove it.
Anyhow, please, someone ask Kevin the following questions:
Why does he sometimes put notches on the rejects, and sometimes doesn't?
Why does he put them where the handle would go, so they are effectively hidden?
How many reject knives are out there, if both Nam and us got ones with notches?
Is the knife a reject, or a fake, or a shop knife, or stolen?
He's got his own forums, lord knows it wouldn't be hard to ask these questions. I'm seeing a disturbing lack of interest in finding out these answers by those who would question our integrity, but find his to be exemplary.
I don't think that NamViet Vo has serious bad feelings about Kevin, but I can't speak for him. I do know that he's bought a lot of his knives though, so that would make him credible as a valid customer... then again, anytime anyone says anything negative about a Mad Dog knife they are clearly part of the vast conspiracy.
Walt, both Mike and myself are willing to retest an ATAK. Nam's bringing his, you are sending yours, so somewhere, some how, we will have what is no doubt a genuine Mad Dog knife to test. And we'll report the findings. Who knows what will happen then.
Spark
------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 76,307
I've read your post three times now, Walt, and I'm still not sure I understand what agreement or agreements you feel Mike and Spark have violated ... maybe I'm the one who needs to have his brain x-rayed.... It sounds to me -- please correct me if my thinking is impaired by mind-control rays; we all have to support each other -- the minions of Darkness can't mind-control all of us at once! Some of us are bound to be able to think for ourselves at any given moment because they don't have enough mind-control rays to control us all. The only problem we have is how do we determine which of us are mentally unimpaired at any given moment???
It sounds to me like there were either two or three things agreed to -- x-raying your ATAK before the test and testing that one only if it had no notches would be a good idea, and you only needed to go to the trouble of getting two of your knives x-rayed and that would settle ... what? And possibly a third agreement, either that they wouldn't pester you to x-ray any more knives after those two, or maybe that if both the knives you x-rayed again had no notches that would prove the notches on the ATAK they tested were put there as secret marks to indicate the knife was a reject, and they would admit that publicly? Are you accusing them of violating an agreement not to pester you for more x-rays, or an agreement to publicly proclaim they believe the secretly marked reject hypothesis (whether they in fact believe it now or not)?
I don't know that it matters any ... I didn't agree either not to pester you for more x-rays or to proclaim the secretly marked reject hypothesis, and I'm loudmouthed enough for three of us....
(I've been having a wonderful time ridiculing ideas posted by both sides of this controversy whenever I see any ideas I consider worthy of ridicule, and I'm seeing plenty! If you haven't caught up with the controversy thus far you have some comic reading ahead of you. I've also been throwing in general ridicule of everything and everybody whether they need it or not, on the principle anything worth doing is worth overdoing.... I even got carried away and ridiculed a Franklin Mint knife ... which is not an easy thing to overdo....)
We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity do not believe the cover story about secretly marked rejects; we've made our position clear on that issue. Finding another MDK with no notches, or another ten or twenty with no notches, would not convince us the notched MDKs are anything but keys.
We are very interested in finding out how many Mad Dog Keys have been made, though, in order to refine our estimate of how many flying saucers will be landing. We would love to see more x-rays.
However, we have also been busy developing other ways to tell the difference between a knife and a key, which we have posted in other threads. Unfortunately we have not yet been able to obtain a flying saucer to test keys on, but we expect to obtain one any day now.
In the meantime, we've been working with those who have MDKs available for testing to develop definitive test methods based on edge brittleness or lack thereof, and that effort is going well. There's still some question whether Will Kwan has a knife or a key, but we expect that to be resolved with further testing.
So if there are obstacles to x-raying more MDKs we won't pester you too hard.
A reasonable person might think it more important to find out what percentage of MDKs have brittle edges (and just how brittle they are) than what percentage have secret notches "to mark them as rejects." A reasonable person might not even understand the importance of finding out what percentage can unlock flying saucers. It makes no difference to us; we base our opinions on higher sources of knowledge than mere reason and we know all three percentages are the same -- so why not test edge brittleness and satisfy the reasonable people? It won't do any harm to give them a concession ... they seldom get any concessions, after all....
-Wholly Brother Cougar, Speaker to the Cistern
P.S. You might want to try the testing procedures we're developing on your collection of MDKs, Walt ... the question for you is whether testing edge brittleness would be more or less hassle (fun) than x-raying.
Unless, of course, you're one of those reasonable people and only care whether your MDKs are brittle or not, and don't care whether they can unlock flying saucers.
Boy, are those reasonable people going to look silly on the Great Day when the flying saucers land! I can hardly wait to see their faces....
-Wholly Brother Cougar :{)
It sounds to me like there were either two or three things agreed to -- x-raying your ATAK before the test and testing that one only if it had no notches would be a good idea, and you only needed to go to the trouble of getting two of your knives x-rayed and that would settle ... what? And possibly a third agreement, either that they wouldn't pester you to x-ray any more knives after those two, or maybe that if both the knives you x-rayed again had no notches that would prove the notches on the ATAK they tested were put there as secret marks to indicate the knife was a reject, and they would admit that publicly? Are you accusing them of violating an agreement not to pester you for more x-rays, or an agreement to publicly proclaim they believe the secretly marked reject hypothesis (whether they in fact believe it now or not)?
I don't know that it matters any ... I didn't agree either not to pester you for more x-rays or to proclaim the secretly marked reject hypothesis, and I'm loudmouthed enough for three of us....
We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity do not believe the cover story about secretly marked rejects; we've made our position clear on that issue. Finding another MDK with no notches, or another ten or twenty with no notches, would not convince us the notched MDKs are anything but keys.
We are very interested in finding out how many Mad Dog Keys have been made, though, in order to refine our estimate of how many flying saucers will be landing. We would love to see more x-rays.
However, we have also been busy developing other ways to tell the difference between a knife and a key, which we have posted in other threads. Unfortunately we have not yet been able to obtain a flying saucer to test keys on, but we expect to obtain one any day now.
In the meantime, we've been working with those who have MDKs available for testing to develop definitive test methods based on edge brittleness or lack thereof, and that effort is going well. There's still some question whether Will Kwan has a knife or a key, but we expect that to be resolved with further testing.
So if there are obstacles to x-raying more MDKs we won't pester you too hard.
A reasonable person might think it more important to find out what percentage of MDKs have brittle edges (and just how brittle they are) than what percentage have secret notches "to mark them as rejects." A reasonable person might not even understand the importance of finding out what percentage can unlock flying saucers. It makes no difference to us; we base our opinions on higher sources of knowledge than mere reason and we know all three percentages are the same -- so why not test edge brittleness and satisfy the reasonable people? It won't do any harm to give them a concession ... they seldom get any concessions, after all....
-Wholly Brother Cougar, Speaker to the Cistern
P.S. You might want to try the testing procedures we're developing on your collection of MDKs, Walt ... the question for you is whether testing edge brittleness would be more or less hassle (fun) than x-raying.
Unless, of course, you're one of those reasonable people and only care whether your MDKs are brittle or not, and don't care whether they can unlock flying saucers.
Boy, are those reasonable people going to look silly on the Great Day when the flying saucers land! I can hardly wait to see their faces....
-Wholly Brother Cougar :{)
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 1,838
Mike; Spark; I give up. Obviously my recollection of the phone call and yours and Spark's is different. I would be glad to make any or all of my MD's available to you or an independent tester if you gentlemen think that this would be useful.
Cougar; TEST my knives? Horrors! I keep them all in my humidity controlled sock drawer, wrapped in Tuf-Cloths! Except, of course, for the poor knife I sent Turber to maim.
Walt
PS Coug; I think that your flying saucer key schtick is the funniest thing I have seen in quite a while! Keep it up!
Cougar; TEST my knives? Horrors! I keep them all in my humidity controlled sock drawer, wrapped in Tuf-Cloths! Except, of course, for the poor knife I sent Turber to maim.
Walt
PS Coug; I think that your flying saucer key schtick is the funniest thing I have seen in quite a while! Keep it up!
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
- Oct 9, 1998
- Messages
- 76,307
In a humidity controlled sock drawer??? Is that a sign you are afraid your MDKs might RUST??? Does the Cardinal know about your dreadful lack of faith???
Dissolve a teaspoon of ordinary table salt in a glass of water and immerse the handle of your ATAK in it for precisely three minutes. We'll wait . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What happened? Did the handle fall off?
-Wholly Brother Cougar, Speaker to the Cistern :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 18 November 1999).]
Dissolve a teaspoon of ordinary table salt in a glass of water and immerse the handle of your ATAK in it for precisely three minutes. We'll wait . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What happened? Did the handle fall off?
-Wholly Brother Cougar, Speaker to the Cistern :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 18 November 1999).]
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 1,838
Wholly Brother Cougar; actually my comment stems from a comment Teryl, Kevin's wife, made to me at KNIFEGNUGEN. She said what really drives Kevin up a tree is people who buy his knives and keep them in a sock drawer.
And everybody knows how I am when it comes to driving people up trees. heh heh heh
Saint Walter, the Illuminated, CTT
And everybody knows how I am when it comes to driving people up trees. heh heh heh
Saint Walter, the Illuminated, CTT