West System Junkies

[bobbywett]

Hi Guys,

I'm starting this thread to see if I can get any input on what particular product and or ratios/fillers from West System Epoxies knife makers are using. I know feedback will probably be limited, because not every maker uses or has familiarity with these epoxies. I'm also guessing that the hand pump system will be the way to go too?

Thanks for any help,

Bob,

Hershey, PA

P. S. What pot life/working/curing ratios?

 

[jdm61]

John White is probably the go to guy because he was a boatbuilder for year. With that said, the collodial filler may be the only one you need for knifemaking. The hand pump system is DEFINITELY the way to go as you don't have to worry about ratios. I use the regular 5-1 stuff.

 

[bobbywett]

Thanks Joe,

Their website is filled with information about ratio's and combination's. I'll look into the collodial filler and avoid any of their mechanized pumps.

 

[jdm61]

Thanks Joe,

Their website is filled with information about ratio's and combination's. I'll look into the collodial filler and avoid any of their mechanized pumps.

Supposedly, good epoxy like West adn Accraglass have a VERY long shelf life, but there is no need for a knifemaker to buy more than a pint of resin and the small can of catalyst at a time. They come with the little pump nozzles. Also, the 3-1 stuff is not really made for what we do from what I read. The plain jane resin and the 5-1 hardener (stuff with the 101-12 minute pot life) works great for me. it takes much longer to harden up in a seal environment, but it will turn to a little yellow plastic lollipop in the cup after 10 minutes with much smoke and heat....lol. I use the little paper 3 ounce bathroom Dixie cups for mixing.

 

[bobbywett]

Supposedly, good epoxy like West adn Accraglass have a VERY long shelf life, but there is no need for a knifemaker to buy more than a pint of resin and the small can of catalyst at a time. They come with the little pump nozzles. Also, the 3-1 stuff is not really made for what we do from what I read. The plain jane resin and the 5-1 hardener (stuff with the 101-12 minute pot life) works great for me. it takes much longer to harden up in a seal environment, but it will turn to a little yellow plastic lollipop in the cup after 10 minutes with much smoke and heat....lol. I use the little paper 3 ounce bathroom Dixie cups for mixing.

Thanks a bunch sir.....I'm going to recheck their website now, with a little better idea of what I'll need....

Truly Appreciative Joe
__________________

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

To keep the pot from setting up and smoking, use a wide and shallow mixing container. For best results, mix once in a cup, then pour into a shallow dish/container and re-mix. This greatly extends pot life and assures a consistent mix quality.
Stacy

 

[Greg Obach]

smoking ? i've never had that happen and i've been using west systems for years..

the one i use is abit liquidy.. so if you use a wood or burl that has those little pin holes..it will sorta flow into them and out ... so i'll put a touch of crazy glue to seal up any little holes..
mine sets up in an hour... which is great ! it pours very well..

mix mine up in a soup can... with a popsicle stick... then bend the can lip into a pouring spout type funnel and there you go...

i use the pumps... worth it not to play around with measuring cups and sticky resins ... but you have to have a couple knives ready for handles... otherwise you'll have lots of epoxy left over.... which i often use xtra to glue up my hammer heads to the handle .. when they come loose


G

 

[bobbywett]

Stacey,

I've heard that the J B weld (what I currently use) creates a bit of heat as it cures too. Although, Ive yet to notice it. One thing I always have tried to do is mix any resins & hardener/activators as thoroughly as possible.

Greg,

It's nice to have an epoxy that gets a bit runny for pouring into hidden tang handles.....although, Ive learned the hard way, not to fill the cavity too full....spills out all over the place when the blade tang is inserted...duh!

but you have to have a couple knives ready for handles... otherwise you'll have lots of epoxy left over.... which i often use xtra to glue up my hammer heads to the handle .. when they come loose

I'm a bit of an epoxy "miser", don't like to use more than what is needed. So I guess I'll have to get pretty proficient with the pumps....and measuring how much I mix up.

Thanks for the Great Info Guys

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

......but you have to have a couple knives ready for handles... otherwise you'll have lots of epoxy left over....
G

No reason to do that.
Right of of the West System site:

"Dispensing without Mini Pumps (Weight/volume measure) - To measure 105 Resin and 205 or 206 Hardener by weight or volume, combine five parts resin with one part hardener."

Get your self a couple of the liquid marinade injector syringes. Just make sure they're two identical ones.
They're air tight, when you push all of the air out, so the contents won't suffer.
Just dispense the hardener and the resin at a 1:5 ratio according to the volume requirements of the task.
There's no need to mix more than your task requires.

 

[John White]

Bobbywett,

Having used West System exclusively for boatbuilding for some 30 years, and attending numerous seminars on its use,I can recommend it for all our knifemaking needs.

However, it is an industrial material requiring certain precise user techniques, that , if not followed, lose you all the benefits of its superior qualities.

First, and maybe most important, it is designed to be mixed in a precise 5:1, resin:hardener ratio by volume. The margin is only 5%, and the only practical method of despensing is the pumps made specifically for this ratio. West makes mini-pumps (#423) to fit the containers, allowing one full pump of hardener to one full pump of resin to despense the 5:1 ratio. One pump of each is more than enough for one handle, but is the only practical, precise method of mixing small amounts. Other methods exist, but remember, in small amounts, the amount sticking to your cup, or syringe, or whatever, can add up to more than 5%. Extra resin/hardener will remain un-linked in a cured mix, and reduce strenghth.



501 resin is the one we need. 206 slow hardener is the most useful hardener, use range 60 to 95 degrees, 205 fast hardener works down to 45 degrees, but will teach you quickly about smoking epoxy when the temp is in the 90's.

An important point is that the resin/hardener mix by itself is NOT a glue. It is a coating, sealer, and laminating resin, ie, you can make "micarta" with any material that can be saturated. To make a glue, you must add a filler, and colloidal silica(406) is the most useful to us. It may be mixed into the resin/hardened mixture in any desired proportions, from a runny mix, to the stiffest "peanut butter", and still develop full strength, ( for filling handles, mix to "stiff", put in zip-lock bag, cut corner and use as cake-decorating despenser)

423 graphite powder gives you a jet black color( fill those Desert Ironwood cavities)

Pot life for small mixes shpuld be about 20 minutes, can be extended by pouring mix into shallow pan, cure to clamp removal, 4-6 hrs, cure to 90% strength, overnite. As a practical rule, overnite before messing with it.

Safety.. hardener is a sensitizer, keep it off your hands. Clean up from hands with NON-pumice GOJO, don't breathe sanding dust, especially from semi-cured, don't breathe silica.

Clean up non-cured mixtures with WD-40, its not so aggressive as to pull the epoxy out of seams, and also won't rust steel, or bleach wood.

I could go on forever, epoxy use is critical in boatbuilding, but this will get you started West has great info on their site, and in publications.

John

 

[jdm61]

Bobbywett,

Having used West System exclusively for boatbuilding for some 30 years, and attending numerous seminars on its use,I can recommend it for all our knifemaking needs.

However, it is an industrial material requiring certain precise user techniques, that , if not followed, lose you all the benefits of its superior qualities.

First, and maybe most important, it is designed to be mixed in a precise 5:1, resin:hardener ratio by volume. The margin is only 5%, and the only practical method of despensing is the pumps made specifically for this ratio. West makes mini-pumps (#423) to fit the containers, allowing one full pump of hardener to one full pump of resin to despense the 5:1 ratio. One pump of each is more than enough for one handle, but is the only practical, precise method of mixing small amounts.

501 resin is the one we need. 206 slow hardener is the most useful hardener, use range 60 to 95 degrees, 205 fast hardener works down to 45 degrees, but will teach you quickly about smoking epoxy when the temp is in the 90's.

An important point is that the resin/hardener mix by itself is NOT a glue. It is a coating, sealer, and laminating resin, ie, you can make "micarta" with any material that can be saturated. To make a glue, you must add a filler, and colloidal silica(406) is the most useful to us. It may be mixed into the resin/hardened mixture in any desired proportions, from a runny mix, to the stiffest "peanut butter", and still develop full strenght. ( for filling handles, mix to "stiff", put in zip-lock bag, cut corner and use as cake-decorating despenser)

423 graphite powder gives you a jet black color( fill those Desert Ironwood cavities)

Pot life for small mixes shpuld be about 20 minutes, can be extended by pouring mix into shallow pan, cure to clamp removal, 4-6 hrs, cure to 90% strenght, overnite. As a practical rule, overnite before messing with it.

Safety.. hardener is a sensitizer, keep it off your hands. Clean up from hands with NON-pumice GOJO, don't breathe sanding dust, especially from semi-cured, don't breathe silica.

Clean up non-cured mixtures with WD-40, its not so aggressive as to pull the epoxy out of seams, and also won't rust steel, or bleach wood.

I could go on forever, epoxy use is critical in boatbuilding, but this will get you started West has great info on their site, and in publications.

John

Darn good advice on the WD 40. It will clean up any and all uncured epoxy. IT is particularly good for cleaning JB weld when it squeezes out around the guard/ricasso joint.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Bobbywett,


First, and maybe most important, it is designed to be mixed in a precise 5:1, resin:hardener ratio by volume. The margin is only 5%, and the only practical method of despensing is the pumps made specifically for this ratio

John

I'll refine my post.
I contest the "only practical" portion of your statement.
On the West site it states "Dispensing without Mini Pumps (Weight/volume measure) - To measure 105 Resin and 205 or 206 Hardener by weight or volume, combine five parts resin with one part hardener."

It specifically states "weight or volume" NOT just volume!
I use my reloading scale. I place a 32 grain plastic cup like you get in the restaurant for your Blue Cheese dressing.
Then, using my injector syringes, dispense the EXACT weight of material/ratio for the job.
I'll bet I get closer to to the precise 5:1 ratio than the mini-pumps! Often times within less that .5 gr.
WELL within the 5% tolerance.
It can be done easily.
Look what we use for knife steel! Most of it was meant for something else.
We figured out how to use them for knife blades, we can figure out how to mix epoxy.

 

[John White]

Karl,

I don't doubt for a moment that you and other careful makers can achieve precise measurements of even small amounts. I 'm a great admirer of your precision methods, including heat treatment and working take-downs. I will note , that to the usual marine user, a small amount might be a quart , where measurement by weight or volume may be less influenced by what sticks to the cup or stir stick, for example.

I'm probably too picky about how I'll despense information , even in a forum where many experienced hands can chime in to clarify points. I don't know, however, all who might read and interpret these posts.

My pickyness holds over from my former work, where I wasn't worried that someone might "adapt and innovate" and have a handle develop a crack, but might , as happened yesterday at our local marina, attempt repair of a malfunctioning bilge pump without running the bilge blower for the standard five minutes, in an inboard gasser. Picky, picky, boom.

I should probably just go back out and turn that finial down using my DeWalt- 18- volt precision- hand- drill/lathe, and quit running my mouth.

John" the repentant"

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Karl,

.........attempt repair of a malfunctioning bilge pump without running the bilge blower for the standard five minutes, in an inboard gasser. Picky, picky, boom...............

I should probably just go back out and turn that finial down using my DeWalt- 18- volt precision- hand- drill/lathe, and quit running my mouth.

John" the repentant"

Hey, I use my Dewalt to shape my finials as well!
That bilge scenario scares me. A few mishaps in a situation like that is enough to change your viewpoint on a LOT of things!
Thanks, John.
You apparently have a lot more experience with the West System than do I.
I'll be more careful in the near future!
I just now got home from a 80 mile round-trip drive to buy a quart of Resin.
All they had was gallons for about 100 bucks.
Need any?

 

[jdm61]

Hey, I use my Dewalt to shape my finials as well!
That bilge scenario scares me. A few mishaps in a situation like that is enough to change your viewpoint on a LOT of things!
Thanks, John.
You apparently have a lot more experience with the West System than do I.
I'll be more careful in the near future!
I just now got home from a 80 mile round-trip drive to buy a quart of Resin.
All they had was gallons for about 100 bucks.
Need any?

You now understand why production boat builders looking to save a couple of shekels will go with polyester or vinylester resins instead of epoxy.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I know how much it costs, it just bummed me out that all they had was gallons.
Had I forseen needing some, I could have got some off of that auction site, saved 10 bucks and would never had to leave the house for two hours.
Better planning next time.

 

[tmickley]

I've used West in the past. I once had dixie cup full of it (2 squirts instead of one) get so hot it scorched the plywood bench. It isn't cheap stuff but I know it's some of the best out there also. I didn't care for the pump set up as it dispensed so much for a simple handle glue up that I felt it was too wasteful and stopped using it when I used my last cans up.