Wet Liner and framelocks

[wildmike]

I have had several benchmade's and my Harsey T3. I have used all of them extensively around and even in the water. I have never experienced any problems with the liner lock mechanisms, or any other funtional aspects of any of these knives due to their being wet. Nor any problems due to prolonged exposure to moisture and water.

 

[orthogonal1]

Could you explain to me why he did it?

IT certainly doesnt make the lock any stronger. It just ensures that you do not push the lock back without disengaging the LAWKS feature, making them more complicated to close.

I am still trying to find any benefits to it at all.

Carson did it because liner-locks have a high incidence of failure. Liner-locks seem to unexpectedly fail even after "passing" testing. Then, after a failure, the locks will "work".

The OP started the discussion concerning an incident where water apparently acted as a lube, allowing failure of the lock. Add in residual oil or oil that has crept and one can see how the incident occured.

 

[wildjim]

And a total pain in the ass. :barf:

I tried to like the AutoLAWK feature, but I guess it just wasn't for me.

I thought the same way at first as the first M16 I got had a manual lock lever. But now I understand why Kit Carson made the AutoLAWKS and I love it as with just a little getting used to I am able to close it with one hand just as easily. At least now I am sure it will not close on fingers which is a fear of mine since having a non locking knife close on my fingers in my youth. My fault with misuse but it happened just the same.

 

[Josh K]

I thought the same way at first as the first M16 I got had a manual lock lever. But now I understand why Kit Carson made the AutoLAWKS and I love it as with just a little getting used to I am able to close it with one hand just as easily. At least now I am sure it will not close on fingers which is a fear of mine since having a non locking knife close on my fingers in my youth. My fault with misuse but it happened just the same.

Using the knife properly and not back loading the tip will keep it safe. For practice get rid of all locking knives for a year.

The lock is a convenient mechanical device and as such it is inherently prone to failure. AutoLAWKS is nice, but it's further complicating the mechanics of the lock and further increasing chance of failure of either the LAWKS mechanism or the lock itself.

Kit Carson did not design the AutoLAWKS. LAWKS is Lake And Walker Knife Safety. CRKT created (with permission) their adaption called the AutoLAWKS. They use it on more then just Kit Carson's designs.

I had an M21. It was neat. Interesting. Fun to play with. But ultimately it was a hassle whenever I loaned the knife out.

 

[wildjim]

Using the knife properly and not back loading the tip will keep it safe. For practice get rid of all locking knives for a year.

The lock is a convenient mechanical device and as such it is inherently prone to failure. AutoLAWKS is nice, but it's further complicating the mechanics of the lock and further increasing chance of failure of either the LAWKS mechanism or the lock itself.

Kit Carson did not design the AutoLAWKS. LAWKS is Lake And Walker Knife Safety. CRKT created (with permission) their adaption called the AutoLAWKS. They use it on more then just Kit Carson's designs.

I had an M21. It was neat. Interesting. Fun to play with. But ultimately it was a hassle whenever I loaned the knife out.

Oh I see! Foolish me and Kit Carson ; ) Anyway I like the AutoLAWKS feature on my M16 as it gives me some peace of mind from my fear of the blade closing on my fingers. Its not a complicated mechanism rather just a lever with an L shaped bar the block the Liner Lock.

 

[Josh K]

Oh I see! Foolish me and Kit Carson ; ) Anyway I like the AutoLAWKS feature on my M16 as it gives me some peace of mind from my fear of the blade closing on my fingers. Its not a complicated mechanism rather just a lever with an L shaped bar the block the Liner Lock.

LAWKS is a simple lever. AutoLAWKS is a spring engaging the lever and the bar. The spring it a tight coil. I got mine dirtied up and couldn't unlock the thing. Had to take it all apart, and hunting around for the 5 or 6 extra pieces for the AutoLAWKS mechanism sucked.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's a very good idea. Just like ABS brakes on a car. But when a fuse blows and the ABS goes out, you're driving on a wet road and a deer jumps out in front of you, you're going to skid.

 

[orthogonal1]

Using the knife properly and not back loading the tip will keep it safe. For practice get rid of all locking knives for a year.

The lock is a convenient mechanical device and as such it is inherently prone to failure. AutoLAWKS is nice, but it's further complicating the mechanics of the lock and further increasing chance of failure of either the LAWKS mechanism or the lock itself.

Kit Carson did not design the AutoLAWKS. LAWKS is Lake And Walker Knife Safety. CRKT created (with permission) their adaption called the AutoLAWKS. They use it on more then just Kit Carson's designs.

My bad as to the designer.

But you are wrong as to more parts equating to "prone to failure". The liner-lock design itself is "prone to failure" in comparison to many alternative locking mechanisms. The K.I.S.S. principle only goes so far, just as M.I.B.


Most of liner-lock failures I've dealt with were from simple, rather low level stabbing cuts. These failures could have been reduced by simply providing a blade shape with a tip that biases the blade open when stabbing, reducung "back loading".

 

[Josh K]

But you are wrong as to more parts equating to "prone to failure". The liner-lock design itself is "prone to failure" in comparison to many alternative locking mechanisms. The K.I.S.S. principle only goes so far, just as M.I.B.

You're assuming I meant failure of the lock, which I didn't. More components and parts does increase the risk of one of those parts failing.

How can the KISS principal only go so far? Go to the extreme and buy a fixed blade.

Most of liner-lock failures I've dealt with were from simple, rather low level stabbing cuts. These failures could have been reduced by simply providing a blade shape with a tip that biases the blade open when stabbing, reducung "back loading".

This means that the blade shape and overall design of the knife is a lot more important then what lock you have, or what gadgets you use to keep it locked open. If the liner failed on a stabbing cut, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that even if the LAWKS prevented the knife from closing, you would still damage the lock leaf spring?

 

[wildjim]

My bad as to the designer.

But you are wrong as to more parts equating to "prone to failure". The liner-lock design itself is "prone to failure" in comparison to many alternative locking mechanisms. The K.I.S.S. principle only goes so far, just as M.I.B.


Most of liner-lock failures I've dealt with were from simple, rather low level stabbing cuts. These failures could have been reduced by simply providing a blade shape with a tip that biases the blade open when stabbing, reducung "back loading".

I reckon if I were stabbing as if my life depended on it I would use a fixed blade.

The basic design of a folding knife with a Liner Lock or Frame Lock seems weak in comparison to a fixed blade which is why a folder of that design will always be just a portable small task limited use knife to me.

 

[Josh K]

I reckon if I were stabbing as if my life depended on it I would use a fixed blade.

The basic design of a folding knife with a Liner Lock or Frame Lock seems weak in comparison to a fixed blade which is why a folder of that design will always be just a portable small task limited use knife to me.

Every folding knife has a flaw that makes it weaker then a fixed blade. It's already broken.

I've had no problems stabbing with my Strider SMF, Spyderco Paramilitary/Military/ATR/Chinook 3/Police 3. Quality knives by quality companies will have quality locks. Find a better liner lock then the Spyderco Military. (And yes, when stabbing it does not back load the lock.)

 

[Splat]

I don't mind the AutoLawks on my CRKT knives. It might take .5-1 second more to close the blade but that's not a big deal to me.

 

[orthogonal1]

You're assuming I meant failure of the lock, which I didn't. More components and parts does increase the risk of one of those parts failing.

How can the KISS principal only go so far? Go to the extreme and buy a fixed blade.


This means that the blade shape and overall design of the knife is a lot more important then what lock you have, or what gadgets you use to keep it locked open. If the liner failed on a stabbing cut, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that even if the LAWKS prevented the knife from closing, you would still damage the lock leaf spring?

The K.I.S.S. principle fails when the goal is something that cannot be accomplished using it - re a fixed blade knife is not a folding, locking knife.

Blade shape is a factor in how a knife lock is stressed (amongst many things), notably so in stabbling moves. A reliable lock should be able to deal with various loadings and stay locked - at least until some permanent deformation occurs and truely breaks the lock.

The stabbing moves I usually dealt with had rather low loads, stabbing the knife into a cardboard box seemed the most popular. There was no damage to the lock that I could determine and I didn't expect to find any due to the low load (annoying when others ask you why their knife lock failed). The annoying thing, and most telling, it how the users had done such numerous times without any clue the knife lock would fail.

Liner-locks fail under a number of different loadings. That is why people have devised different tests to determine lock integrity - medium spine taps, light and rapid spine taps, slow and constant load application, etc.

BTW - the knives in question generally passed the three common tests after the incident and most passed before the incident since I used to say liner-locks were generally OK from certain makers.

 

[Josh K]

The K.I.S.S. principle fails when the goal is something that cannot be accomplished using it - re a fixed blade knife is not a folding, locking knife.

Blade shape is a factor in how a knife lock is stressed (amongst many things), notably so in stabbling moves. A reliable lock should be able to deal with various loadings and stay locked - at least until some permanent deformation occurs and truely breaks the lock.

The stabbing moves I usually dealt with had rather low loads, stabbing the knife into a cardboard box seemed the most popular. There was no damage to the lock that I could determine and I didn't expect to find any due to the low load (annoying when others ask you why their knife lock failed). The annoying thing, and most telling, it how the users had done such numerous times without any clue the knife lock would fail.

Liner-locks fail under a number of different loadings. That is why people have devised different tests to determine lock integrity - medium spine taps, light and rapid spine taps, slow and constant load application, etc.

BTW - the knives in question generally passed the three common tests after the incident and most passed before the incident since I used to say liner-locks were generally OK from certain makers.

If the lock fails because you stabbed a cardboard box, then the knife needs to be replaced under warranty.

 

[orthogonal1]

That was my recommendation, that and get a different knife.

I rarely buy liner-locks anymore (being a steel snob has disadvantages) and do not recommend such knives to others. There are better and more reliable locks out there.

 

[Josh K]

That was my recommendation, that and get a different knife.

I rarely buy liner-locks anymore (being a steel snob has disadvantages) and do not recommend such knives to others. There are better and more reliable locks out there.

Like I said, liner locks from quality makers are fine, great even. I prefer Spydero liner locks to just about every other lock type. It's hard to judge because they fit each lock to the intended use and it works well together.

 

[orthogonal1]

Yeah, Spyderco sent one of them a new one.

 

[noodlefish]

To all the people who think the autolawks is great it is except my m16 is my only liner lock that moves off the tang it moves so much that it slides up against the lawks bar when I put pressure on the blade when I go home I will test mine with the lawks disengaged and see if it fails I will report back

 

[Josh K]

To all the people who think the autolawks is great it is except my m16 is my only liner lock that moves off the tang it moves so much that it slides up against the lawks bar when I put pressure on the blade when I go home I will test mine with the lawks disengaged and see if it fails I will report back

Yeah. That's a problem. That means they should engineer their locks better, rather then build another mechanical doo-hicky to save their bad locks.

 

[1234]

Spine whacking a wet frame lock , this one fails .

[youtube]_4Fl6ljInRo[/youtube]

1234,,,,,,,

 

[orthogonal1]

Oh, that doesn't count. That knife is obviously a cheap, and therefore inferior, knife.

Being facetious, BTW.

I don't buy into the price reasoning.

Oops, forgot to say "thanks" for the video. Thanks.