What $50.00 to $150.00 knives have you broken

allenC said:
Now we're getting somewhere.

So, what exactly were you doing with the knives?

Allen.
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Using it like any survival knife should be. I was prying apart a soaked log 4 inches in diameter to get at the dry center when the blade just bent. The second blade was batoned through a frozen log and snapped.

This has been said many times and is nothing new to my use of blades hard. It is however a one benchmark I use to defining a good hard use blade. If they can't survive the above I don't use them or recommend them.

Skam
 
Tony Turner said:
Thanx Skammer, that was an example I was looking for, now was that so hard :D
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Well it was and it wasn't. The USAF blade fans have my number now however they are not nearly as fanatical about their blades. It cost less than the $50 scenario and will offend few.

I will not however list $100+ blades I have seen broken or broke myself as this will cause serious friction that I am unwilling to partake in. Its also bad for business.

Skam
 
Someone point me exactly to the great owners manual of knives where it says it should only be used for cutting. :rolleyes:
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Needless to say, I have snapped a few folders over the years but I don't abuse folders anymore becasue I assume they will break and have no reason to believe this will change. It just not in a folder to withstand prying.
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I guess you have to read between the lines of the great owner's manual of knives.
:yawn:
 
Ebbtide said:
I guess you have to read between the lines of the great owner's manual of knives.
:yawn:
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Nope, just conjure up some common sense is all. ;)

Skam
 
Some folding knives are made to pry, Striders and ER being obvious ones. If a folder is made "just for cutting" the blade is 1/16", full hollow ground on full hard steel. When you move towards thicker stock, heavier grinds, softer steel, this is done to allow the blade to move beyond being a pure cutting tool.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Some folding knives are made to pry, Striders and ER being obvious ones. If a folder is made "just for cutting" the blade is 1/16", full hollow ground on full hard steel. When you move towards thicker stock, heavier grinds, softer steel, this is done to allow the blade to move beyond being a pure cutting tool.

-Cliff
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I stand corrected. I have not tried to pry a premium folder out of fear because of my enevitable history of breakage. I would asssume pryable folders are rare?

Skam
 
Heavy folder blades are not that rare now, many tacticals have 3/16" and thicker blades, some with heavy grinds. The ER folders take this to an upper limit which is just silly, 1/4" stock on a 4" blade and sabre ground on top of it. But beyond the really heavy duty ones, the market is full of chunky sabre ground folders which obviously are not made simply to cut.

The biggest problem with many is that the pivot is much weaker than the blade so if you do try to actually use the knife to its full ability the handle fails. Just as with fixed blades, some work better than others. Any knife can take some prying strain, and pretty much every time you cut something, outside of a very controlled push, you load a blade laterally, it is just a question of where the blade will break.

Unfortunately not a lot of manufacturers will supply this information so you either under use the knife, or break one and find out the limit. But this holds true for fixed blades as well, not a lot of makers/manufacturers provide limite work in general, there are exceptions of course.

-Cliff
 
So can I pry it like a good user fixed blade and not break these super folders? :confused:

Skam
 
Here's a question to ponder, what is the optimal blade thickness and grind type for the types of knife use skammer described? Or would the heat treat play a part in the breakage and bending?
Scott
 
skammer said:
So can I pry it like a good user fixed blade and not break these super folders? :confused:

Skam
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Hey, you've "folded" some "good" fixed-blades, so why not? :D

(He already answered your question: "fails.")
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Here's a question to ponder, what is the optimal blade thickness and grind type for the types of knife use skammer described? Or would the heat treat play a part in the breakage and bending?
Scott
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I am not an expert or claim to be reguarding blade specifics, all I know is what works. How it works is for others to decide, I am too busy. ;)

I would think there is a host of issues in the durability/ utility outcome, like steel type, heat treat, grind, thickness, geometry etc......

Skam
 
Thomas Linton said:
Hey, you've "folded" some "good" fixed-blades, so why not? :D

(He already answered your question: "fails.")
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Something to be said for clarity or is it sobriety err :eek: .

I need Cliff's notes sometimes haha. :D

Skam
 
skammer said:
I would think there is a host of issues in the durability/ utility outcome, like steel type, heat treat, grind, thickness, geometry etc......

Skam
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Thanks ;) Just asking out of curiosity of what people's thoughts were on this issue.
Scott
 
Skammer wrote in the thread, What knife to take on a bushcraft cousrse:

"Many students bring their blades of choice and leave with them in pieces or damaged trying to duplicate what I am teaching".

Here is a great oportunity for you to list what other knives you have seen other people break, trying to duplicate what you do with your knives for survival situations. Please list the task you are doing, and why. I am just really curious.

thanx
 
skammer said:
So can I pry it like a good user fixed blade and not break these super folders?
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Some like the ER are very robust, I have dug holes with it in seasoned wood, which bent/broke many fixed blades and it was unfazed. The blade is fairly short, so you can't get the leverage you can on a 7-10" fixed blade so it has its limitations as a prybar.

I have used it many times to pry with, it is what I carry it for as it is ground thicker than a splitting wedge. There are lots of others, Strider for example has specifically talked about prying with their folders which have 3/16" blades, drop them a line.

Tony Turner said:
...list the task you are doing
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He has done this a bajillion times, using it to leverage open fixed deadfall, to expose the inner wood.

Razorback - Knives said:
...what is the optimal blade thickness and grind type for the types of knife use skammer described?
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It is trivial to make a knife which can take heavy prying tasks, just grind it with a thick wedge shape. The problem is making a knife durable while allowing it to actually cut well on something which is difficult to cut.

How much stock you need depends on how much strength the individual intends to apply to the blade, the optimal design has just enough cross section to get this strength which will give you maximal cutting ability.

Sabre grinds with large flat sections tend to pry well because you have a flat to leverage off of, otherwise the handle has a tendancy to twist in the hand during heavy work.

There are some interesting tradeoffs, for example a v-ground tip is much more aggressive digging in woods than a convex ground tip as the latter tends to pop out more so than dig the wood out. However it is also stronger for much the same reason.

...would the heat treat play a part in the breakage and bending?
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Yes, full hard steels like ATS-34 can be very strong and resist side loads well up to the point they are overloaded at which point they break with little or no give or warning, and some of the worse ones shard into pieces. Even worse they don't take impacts well which can lead to really premature failure.

Spring tempering the spines of large tool steels will raise the flexiblity dramatically which gives the user a lot more room for error with little loss of strength. Some will leave the spine annealed which makes the blade much more flexible but is now so weak you can bend it trivially by hand.

I have seen some blades like this, 1/4" thick stock, heavy convex grinds which had such a shallow edge quench they could be bent trivially with wrist strain, and some large blades which had no spring and if you slapped them off a log they would have a set.

Recently, some people have been experimenting with bainite, which trades off a few points of hardness (it maxes at ~54 or so HRC) for extreme toughness and durability in regards to shock and loads. Others have started using extreme steels like S7.

-Cliff
 
Tony Turner said:
Here is a great oportunity for you to list what other knives you have seen other people break, trying to duplicate what you do with your knives for survival situations. Please list the task you are doing, and why. I am just really curious.

thanx
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Tony,

Honestly I can't do it. I listed one blade and thats all I am willing. Forum peace and my sanity I would like to keep ;) .

There are some suprises in the mix but most damage I have seen are within reason. Just to be clear its not EVERY blade that brakes by any means, but many get damaged where it takes grinding to correct. Much of the damage comes when either chopping, splitting or prying the rest is unintentional use damage like rock strikes etc...

Also you must understand many/not all I teach are serious blade rookies not like people on this forum with some clue. So I see a huge variety of blades many from Walmart etc..... You know the outcome ;) .

Skam
 
Dunno if it's redundant for me to list mine, but I broke a CS Recon Tanto while trying to baton it through a log. If you want details, there's a whole (large) thread about it. :)
 
Broke a tip off a Gerber MKII in 1978 going thru the USMC Mountain course. Ran out of water, digging in a snow drift in July, hit a rock. Gerber reground/ reprofilied for free and now it's a rare 3/16" shorter MKII. Broke several more tossing them at trees. Ka-Bars- broke 3. Usually prying things such as bands on ammo crates and cans or trying to split small wood. I USE my knives in any way I NEED to. Sure, having the right tool for every job would be great but I can't pull a trailer everywhere I go. My .02 worth
Bob Mills
 
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