What an expensive San Mai knife should be

[orthogonal1]

Since we are discussing laminated steel,

It has been alluded to that delamination is a worry for some individuals.

Has anyone heard of or seen this delamination of a knife occur?

Thanks

 

[Jnak]

has anyone got any experience with the Mcusta's? they sure look nice, and iv been thinking of getting one for a while, the prices seem fair enough.

I have one of the damascus models with stamina wood scales and I really like it. The knife is very smooth to operate and the lock is strong.The size is just right and the pocket clip is mounted so the knife sit firm and the cilp is the only part exposed above the pocket.

 

[Phil Brown]

Years ago I knew someone who came up with what I thought was a great idea. He took the gas line of a car and inserted a steel tube. Surrounding the tube where the fuel flowed was another tube, one he was able to plug that into the radiator line. That way, very hot water would heat up the 3-4-inch tube through which the fuel flowed.

Interestingly enough, this idea was resurrected for SVO (straight vegetable oil) vehicles, since the fuel needs to be around 170°F to flow properly. Electric heaters have almost entirely replaced these, however.

If the center steel is brittle, I think the layers wouldn't be enough to absorb the shock. In short, I hate to say it, but until someone tests it, I'd say San Mai = snake oil. I certainly wouldn't spend the large amounts of money on something that hadn't been tested.

I don't know how much testing CS has done on their knives, but laminate construction is, in one form or another, thousands of years old. Japanese swordmakers would work up from a soft iron spine and add numerous layers of increasingly high carbon steel until they had a very hard layer to form an edge on. The result was a very durable sword that could easily hold a razor edge. The question in my mind is this: what process do modern knifemakers use to laminate steel and how does it compare to ancient methods?

 

[nozh2002]

In old days when there were no stable steel production around - 200 years ago, 1000 years ago, the only way to increase Carbon contents was to put blade blank in the burning coal and this way some carbon from lower part of the flame will migrate into blanck surface. But it is only surface gain carbon. However if you fold this blank and weld by hammer, this surface will be in the middle of the blade now. If repeat this operation, then more and more carbon layers will be inside the blade.

This way bladesmithes in old days were able to manage carbon content of the blade as well as control it in different part of the blade... This layers of high carbon creates "damascus" pattern which now is imitated by mixing diferent sorts of steel instead (layers in result less delicate then they were for real damascus)

For tools and cheap weapons high quality layer usually were put inside raw iron to make it cheaper, but still keep good cutting power.

So lamination is good old idea and well proven.

I am not sure how different steels acts in damascus where layers are pretty thin - I do not trust it also and think that in this case most likely it will be combination of worst qualities of both steels, but in laminated blades when core is 1mm thick and sides both 2mm it most likely work well, and working quality if this steels are well positioned - core steel is on the edge and sides prevents it from corrosion (this for sure check Helle knives).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[SpyderJon]

I think it depends upon the person doing the damascus and the purpose of the knife. As far as delamination, I've never actually heard of that happening with a modern laminate blade. Of course, with the amount of time spent doing this kind of construction one would imagine makers would have worked a lot of the kinks out by now.

As to damascus, I HAVE heard about blades that rusted apart because different steels used were really incompatible. These were older blades, as I recall, but not ancient "real" damascus. I think that's why its important to buy from someone who knows what they're doing and won't use steels that are too incompatible. Then again, if its a user knife you can use good cutting steels, and for a display piece you can use steels that will look pretty together.

The way Burt Foster explained his laminating process, he uses his regular thickness of steel, but puts the stainless on the sides to reduce the maintenance and increase the chances that the owner won't be afraid to use the knife. His ideas on this make sense to me, anyway.

 

[nozh2002]

The way Burt Foster explained his laminating process, he uses his regular thickness of steel, but puts the stainless on the sides to reduce the maintenance and increase the chances that the owner won't be afraid to use the knife. His ideas on this make sense to me, anyway.

This is Scandinavian way of laminated blades, when sides are thinner then core - Helle knives. In Japan they do core thiner then sides - Fallkniven.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Confederate]

Don't worry this technology works for centuries especially in Scandinavia and in Japan -- majority if knives there are laminated.

So if you had to choose between one premium knife steel or a laminate, which would you go with (assuming the laminate was a Cold Steel production)? Thanks.

 

[Andy_L]

Has anyone heard of or seen this delamination of a knife occur?

Thanks

yes, once and only once though

it was with a helle knife (which was replaced). There were pictures on a thread on a bushcraft forum but they have since been deleted/moved

 

[nozh2002]

So if you had to choose between one premium knife steel or a laminate, which would you go with (assuming the laminate was a Cold Steel production)? Thanks.

I am not buying Cold Steel anyway and as I sad I do not see any reason to make laminated blade 420+AUS8+420.

But I prefer laminate like SUS405+SRS15+SUS405 over plain SRS15 just because laminate will have less problms with corrosion. I prefer 420J+ATS34+420J over ATS34 for same reason.

Best example I have - Golden Deer boning knife with HS core and stainless sides. Perfect combination on my opinion.

I will not prefer Cold Steel 420+AUS8+420 over ATS34. And I think Cold Steel has nothing to do with it, but some Japanese manufacturer making this for CS. Again most cuttlery in Japan laminated, but AUS-8 is on low end blades, usually it is Shirogami, Aogamy, SRS15 or ATS34.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Confederate]

Ah, I wondered if that's what kind of sandwich they were offering. Laminating steels won't justify the cost if the steels are low grade steels. Since CS tends to use AUS 8 as their primo steel, I wouldn't trust any of their high spread knives.