What angle do you put on your knives?

What angle do you sharpen your knives to (at the edge/microbevel)

  • 10 / 20 inclusive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 27.5 / 55 inclusive

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes I use a backbevel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No backbevel

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
1,648
I've come to realize something and I think most of the community as a whole, (novices mostly) is under this delusion. What is the point of shallow edge angles? From what I've seen, even with highend steels, shallow angles make for an inferior experience in the long run. Reguardless of the blade steel I can hardly tell a difference slicing paper between a 25deg (inclusive) and a 45deg (inclusive) edge. Blade thickness at the spine has more of an effect when slicing phonebook paper. But the difference is quite noticeable a week later after normal use. The shallow edge folds on softer steels, and chips with 60+ Rockwell supersteels, especially if there is no microbevel. I cringe when I see pictures of XM18s and Sebenzas that have clearly been sharpened on some guided rod system with a ridiculously shallow mirrored bevel that extends a good 6-7mm up the blade. And at that point if you did want to revert back to a respectable 40-50deg edge you have to remove so much material effectively taking years of life out of the knife. When I was learning how to sharpen my knives I also tried putting a screamingly shallow edge on a few and they never lasted long. Even s30v and ZDP-189. Undoubtedly they did far better than a standard steel would have done, but still what is the point? Opening a package is not like slicing a tomato. These aren't kitchen knives which are sharpened every other day to maintain their scalpel like edge. I read that the advantage of high carbon steels and a high Rockwell is that they can take a thinner edge and still retain it. I'd agree with that, but I wouldn't say that is the point. To me a super steel needs sharpening less often. That will only be the case if the angle is unchanged. Also I read that it's difficult to put a sharp edge on the high speed steels. I agree, but only if you're trying to get a <30deg edge. You're trying to remove so much material from a very hard metal and chipping is hard to avoid for beginners. Putting a 45 or 50deg edge is easy on any blade steel in my experience. And with a slight microbevel it'll be a really tough edge. On top of that you're removing less material which increases the life of the knife. I put a 40deg backbevel/50deg edge on my M390 Para II and %&$# this thing stays sharp for a long time! So if you're not slicing tomatoes, cut it out with the thin edges. Pun intended :D
Just my $.02

-Tony
 
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I typically use a 15/30, sometimes with a back bevel, sometimes without--it depends on the knife's geometry. I find that even soft steels can be easily run at 15/30 without issues of rolling or chipping. While I agree that spine thickness is an important factor, it only really comes into play if you're making cuts that run the full depth of the blade or deeper. In all other cases the the geometry right behind the edge is going to be more important. Ultimately overall geometry is a very important design consideration and I usually avoid knives with thick geometry. Edge angle is still important not just due to its effects on the ease of the cut, but also because it affects your minimum angle of approach. Try making a cut at a more shallow angle than the edge angle and you're going to be just running the shoulder over the target instead of cutting.

Yes, there's such thing as too thin, just like there's too thick. But there's nothing wrong with appropriately thin edges. It's about hitting the "just right" zone where performance is maximized.
 
I'd like to address your comment that pocket knives aren't sharpened regularly, simply not true for some knuts.

Depends on the knife use... For some if my folders I'd be irate if the edge was anywhere near 45 degrees, same for kitchen knives.

Just don't see how someone's knife got you perturbed to the point of posting this thread?
 
Depends on the knife/Use...

Could be 10/20, 15/30 or 18/36...
 
For a pocketknife I try for 30 or much less... cuts better, don't need a super durable edge for my largely light-use purposes.
 
1. Gotta comment that if you can't feel the difference between a 15* edge and a 25* edge...somethings wrong.
2. I like to sharpen my knives, so I don't mind if I lose a tiny bit of endurance from the edge due to it being a bit shallower
3. Why should it bother you how I sharpen my knives?
4. If it bothers you to know that some people sharpen their knives to shallow angles, avoid the threads, pretty simple
 
Typically 30 degrees inclusive, most of my knives are on the thinner/slicer side.
 
Kind of depends on the steel for me. I have taken almost all of my knives that I carry down to about 22-23 degrees inclusive but some steels didn't work too well with a super low angle so I raised it a bit. 22-23 inclusive with a 30 degree inclusive microbevel is my favorite so far. especially on M390.
 
I'm somewhat surprised to see so many votes for 30 degrees inclusive or less. Though it is possible that there is some bias (those who know what angle they are using are probably more likely to use lower angles), it appears there are more people that prefer a knife with more slicing ability.
 
I guess I'm the only one who likes thick edges. 25/50 for me. Occasionally I'll do a 20/40 with a 30 degree micro bevel. Anything thinner seems to not fare too well for me.
 
A few things,

First, if you have a 50 inclusive edge then there is no way in knife reality that you are experiencing LONGER edge retention. Once over 40 inclusive the edge performance goes down dramatically and at 50 inclusive you loose about %500 in actual edge retention. (I've done CATRA testing on this, its a fact, no need to argue)

Second, if you can't tell the difference in cutting between a 25 and 45 inclusive edge then your doing it wrong.

Third, most of the last half of what you wrote is misinformation gained by not having a complete understanding of cutlery based performance.
 
I've found claims of edge angles being too acute are usually overstated. I came to this conclusion when I put an Ontario machete to good use, with a 10 degree inclusive edge bevel.

In practice, I find grinding away edge bevels to near zero edges with regard to the primary grind to produce significant improvements in cutting ability, sharpenability, useful edge lasting, with no noticeable decrease in durability (edge deformation/fracturing) that wasn't apparent before.

The microbevel is where the edge usually works back to more conventional angles. But the key word here is "micro"; no more than a hair's width. To maintain optimum performance, there has to be a virtual zero edge. This is ideal. However, just about any thinning of stock edge bevels will produce positive results.
 
I've come to realize something and I think most of the community as a whole, (novices mostly) is under this delusion. What is the point of shallow edge angles? From what I've seen, even with highend steels, shallow angles make for an inferior experience in the long run. Reguardless of the blade steel I can hardly tell a difference slicing paper between a 25deg (inclusive) and a 45deg (inclusive) edge. Blade thickness at the spine has more of an effect when slicing phonebook paper. But the difference is quite noticeable a week later after normal use. The shallow edge folds on softer steels, and chips with 60+ Rockwell supersteels, especially if there is no microbevel. I cringe when I see pictures of XM18s and Sebenzas that have clearly been sharpened on some guided rod system with a ridiculously shallow mirrored bevel that extends a good 6-7mm up the blade. And at that point if you did want to revert back to a respectable 40-50deg edge you have to remove so much material effectively taking years of life out of the knife. When I was learning how to sharpen my knives I also tried putting a screamingly shallow edge on a few and they never lasted long. Even s30v and ZDP-189. Undoubtedly they did far better than a standard steel would have done, but still what is the point? Opening a package is not like slicing a tomato. These aren't kitchen knives which are sharpened every other day to maintain their scalpel like edge. I read that the advantage of high carbon steels and a high Rockwell is that they can take a thinner edge and still retain it. I'd agree with that, but I wouldn't say that is the point. To me a super steel needs sharpening less often. That will only be the case if the angle is unchanged. Also I read that it's difficult to put a sharp edge on the high speed steels. I agree, but only if you're trying to get a <30deg edge. You're trying to remove so much material from a very hard metal and chipping is hard to avoid for beginners. Putting a 45 or 50deg edge is easy on any blade steel in my experience. And with a slight microbevel it'll be a really tough edge. On top of that you're removing less material which increases the life of the knife. I put a 40deg backbevel/50deg edge on my M390 Para II and %&$# this thing stays sharp for a long time! So if you're not slicing tomatoes, cut it out with the thin edges. Pun intended :D
Just my $.02

-Tony

Wow. I just went back and read through your post, and I'm flabbergasted by how you could possibly come to these conclusions.

Here are a few pictures that will undoubtedly make you cringe:

A 4.5mm thick fixed VECP at (25 inclusive bevel/35 inclusive microbevel)
2013-05-10_19-02-41_382_zps383e191a.jpg


Sebenza:
2013-02-25_18-17-48_102_zps18ac0c74.jpg


Umnumzaan:
2013-02-03_18-05-05_74_zps090dbe35.jpg


Honestly, if you try thinning out the bevel on your M390 Para 2, you will find that it actually will increase the edge retention:
2013-02-03_18-00-45_156_zps94a4cfc1.jpg
 
Watching and learning...

I usually do a 25 degree back bevel with a true 40 degree microbevel. It has worked well for me and I saw an immediate difference after thinning the edge. That said, having less steel behind the edge helps immensely. Those super thick mirror edges look pretty, but look at any quality cutlery and you'll see less than about 0.010" in most of them.
 
Watching and learning...

I usually do a 25 degree back bevel with a true 40 degree microbevel. It has worked well for me and I saw an immediate difference after thinning the edge. That said, having less steel behind the edge helps immensely. Those super thick mirror edges look pretty, but look at any quality cutlery and you'll see less than about 0.010" in most of them.

The point of "super thick mirror edges" is to get the steel very thin behind the bevel when the primary grind is not acute enough to achieve this. Of course, it would have been easier to leave the finish coarse after thinning out the bevel, but I like to take it to a mirror finish when I'm bored.

This is what the fixed VECP looked like before I thinned out the bevel:
2013-02-22_23-08-01_581_zps1766ea0f.jpg


As you can see, the primary grind doesn't start until about a third of the way down the 4.5 mm thick blade. When I got the knife, the edge was extremely obtuse--I'd hazard a guess at 50-55 degrees inclusive.

Why not try a 25 inclusive bevel with a 30 degree microbevel? As long as you properly apexed the bevels, a 40 degree microbevel seems obtuse.
 
I suppose a 30 degree microbevel would be just fine, but I make it so small most on the time that it is barely noticeable. I'll post a pic of two spyderco stretches that will illustrate my point about large mirror edge vs thin behind the edge. One is a factory piece that has the edge bevel down around 20 degrees. The other is a Krein regrind with a 30 degree edge bevel. The thickness I the regrind is about 0.010" while the thickness behind the edge of the 20 degree stock blade is probably 0.050". I'll try to measure it later today.
 
Pocket knives/small thinner blades or fixed/thicker blades? I don't have just one...depends on what I intend for these of that blade.
 
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