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Golden ratio. The Golden Triangle was a large heroin distribution ring in Southeast Asia. Bit different
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What are the elements of good design?
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Golden ratio. The Golden Triangle was a large heroin distribution ring in Southeast Asia. Bit different
Tai Goo
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If I'm hearing the question right,… "Are there guidelines or mathematical formulas for good design"?
I would say no. It’s never quite that simple. Guidelines and formulas may often times help in the designing process, although they are no guarantee that the design will be successful.
The "concept" represents the parameters or guidelines of the design, and it can sometimes help to narrow things down and limit your pallet a little. When I was studying design in college, it was usually done by receiving assignments from the instructor and then the work was critiqued by the instructor and the rest of the classmates. In other words, the instructor gave you the concept or some simple guidelines to follow and the rest was up to the individual. It was always interesting to see what the other students came up with. An example for knifemakers might be something simple like, "make a knife without any 90 degree angles", or "make a knife without any straight lines, (except distally along the leading edge)", or maybe something more advanced like "make a knife based on the torus form (doughnut shape) and/or toriodal segments", sort of similar to cubism, but using the torus instead of a cube... stuff like that. Another example might be something like, "think of three "symbols" to represent yourself and use the three symbols in a knife design".
I would say no. It’s never quite that simple. Guidelines and formulas may often times help in the designing process, although they are no guarantee that the design will be successful.
The "concept" represents the parameters or guidelines of the design, and it can sometimes help to narrow things down and limit your pallet a little. When I was studying design in college, it was usually done by receiving assignments from the instructor and then the work was critiqued by the instructor and the rest of the classmates. In other words, the instructor gave you the concept or some simple guidelines to follow and the rest was up to the individual. It was always interesting to see what the other students came up with. An example for knifemakers might be something simple like, "make a knife without any 90 degree angles", or "make a knife without any straight lines, (except distally along the leading edge)", or maybe something more advanced like "make a knife based on the torus form (doughnut shape) and/or toriodal segments", sort of similar to cubism, but using the torus instead of a cube... stuff like that. Another example might be something like, "think of three "symbols" to represent yourself and use the three symbols in a knife design".
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Tai Goo
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As for making a knife out of a doughnut... it sounds like something Homer Simpson would appreciate, to be sure.
Interestingly though on the toroidal knife concept, if you think about it, the overall shape or profile of the knife would not necessarily have to resemble a doughnut if you just stick with segments and lines "derived" from the torus form. The same way a cubistic human figure doesnt necessarily resemble a cube. Its derivative.
Tai Goo
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If function and pure performance are the overriding concepts, then the knife design needs to first and foremost reflect that. Form follows function.
Yes, the next step would be to define pure performance for yourself, and set up a series of performance tests of your choosing, to see how successful you were with your primary knife design concept. Secondary design elements are fine within this context as long as they dont interfere with the main idea.
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Try an experiment. Make a knife based proportionately on the golden ratio and see if it helps... (if you haven't already tried that)
I've tried that a couple of times. Never liked the results so never made the
knife. That doesn't mean that think the golden ratio is junk, just that I don't
yet understand a good way to apply it. Still, thinking about things like that
seems time well spent to me.
Generally about this thread, it seems to me that there are two approaches to
knife design being discussed here:
One follows traditional paths and tries to create the best result possible
within them. This can produce beautiful knives and seems very well suited
to functional knives to me.
The other tries to take a fresh look at things and come up with a new design
that speaks for and to the creator. Done well this can produce remarkable
knives that combine art and function in a new way. This approach seems
much harder to me but potentially rewarding once my craft skills are up to it.
Tai is a leading master of the second way. That's why I frequently refer to
his knives as "sculpture with edges".
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Thousands of years have seen scores of the sharpest, most enlightened minds of human history try to define what "beauty" is, so that it can be reliably obtained.
Now, I know what I'm about to say may sound simplistic and uneducated, especially to those who have passed years of their lives studying aesthetics and design. And believe me when I say that I have reached this conclusion after much studying and pondering about it myself, and that I believe that studying the "rules" is important and definitely has influence on the final result.
But, simply put, you can't define beauty in "rules" more than you can trap smoke in a net.
It just is.
Some people have the ability to create beautyful things, others don't.
And while the former can get better and more sophisticated by studying, and the latter can anyway become at least reasonably good, if you don't have it you'll never get real good, and you'll never excel, no matter how strong your efforts, and study, and how you try to define it in a way that can be simply "applied".
So, when it comes to a "good design", if we talk beauty, I'll be damned if I know how to "define" it. I'd say "harmony" and "flow", but these are just as shapeless and evanescent adjectives as "beautiful" is: it's more like evading the question rather than answering it.
So, I'd put this aside, and concentrate on the functional elements of a good design. Those can be studied, defined, reliably repeated and applied.
And, when it comes to a functional design, I'd say a great majority of designs out there focus too much on the blade, and forget about the HANDLE.
Best three knives I bought, the ones I use most, I bought for the HANDLE, not the blade.
After all, any decently shaped and sharpened piece of steel will cut, but oh so few handles will fit my hand in a way that makes me think "Wow! This was made for ME!".
Now, I know what I'm about to say may sound simplistic and uneducated, especially to those who have passed years of their lives studying aesthetics and design. And believe me when I say that I have reached this conclusion after much studying and pondering about it myself, and that I believe that studying the "rules" is important and definitely has influence on the final result.
But, simply put, you can't define beauty in "rules" more than you can trap smoke in a net.
It just is.
Some people have the ability to create beautyful things, others don't.
And while the former can get better and more sophisticated by studying, and the latter can anyway become at least reasonably good, if you don't have it you'll never get real good, and you'll never excel, no matter how strong your efforts, and study, and how you try to define it in a way that can be simply "applied".
So, when it comes to a "good design", if we talk beauty, I'll be damned if I know how to "define" it. I'd say "harmony" and "flow", but these are just as shapeless and evanescent adjectives as "beautiful" is: it's more like evading the question rather than answering it.
So, I'd put this aside, and concentrate on the functional elements of a good design. Those can be studied, defined, reliably repeated and applied.
And, when it comes to a functional design, I'd say a great majority of designs out there focus too much on the blade, and forget about the HANDLE.
Best three knives I bought, the ones I use most, I bought for the HANDLE, not the blade.
After all, any decently shaped and sharpened piece of steel will cut, but oh so few handles will fit my hand in a way that makes me think "Wow! This was made for ME!".
Golden ratio. The Golden Triangle was a large heroin distribution ring in Southeast Asia. Bit different
The Golden Triangle is also an isosceles triangle ABC with the property that bisecting the angle C produces a new triangle CXB which is a similar triangle to the original.
If angle BCX = α, then XCA = α because of the bisection, and CAB = α because of the similar triangles; ABC = 2α from the original isosceles symmetry, and BXC = 2α by similarity. The angles in a triangle add up to 180°, so 5α = 180, giving α = 36°. So the angles of the golden triangle are thus 36°-72°-72°. The angles of the remaining obtuse isosceles triangle AXC (sometimes called the golden gnomon) are 36°-36°-108°.
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A lot of great points. I think the simplest answer is that whatever you do, it has to look like you did it on purpose.
That's more important for fit and finish than design, but it ties into it.
That's more important for fit and finish than design, but it ties into it.
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The three statements are always right.
Also don't sticking alot in strange artifacts or in golden rules.
It is also a matter to know when applying what.
and also a matter of personal tastes plays an important role: what's good for me it's not that good for you.
cheers
Also don't sticking alot in strange artifacts or in golden rules.
It is also a matter to know when applying what.
and also a matter of personal tastes plays an important role: what's good for me it's not that good for you.
cheers
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:thumbup:I do think studying the subject can make you a better designer. First of all it gives you the vocabulary to describe design, even if only internally. A design that breaks the "norms" must have good function and be able to prove itself, otherwise it becomes just another gimmick. If it proves itself it has the ability to be the new "norm".
I agree with the first answer and that is the first word that comes to mind, "flow".
Also with Nick, in that what you do must look intentional and not haphazard.
If you are reading this thread you are taking at least the first step, and that is scrutinizing the process of design and not just scabbing something together.
Most of all have fun!
Alden
I agree with the first answer and that is the first word that comes to mind, "flow".
Also with Nick, in that what you do must look intentional and not haphazard.
If you are reading this thread you are taking at least the first step, and that is scrutinizing the process of design and not just scabbing something together.
Most of all have fun!
Alden
Tai Goo
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Experimenting is very important in the design process, either within the same guidelines or concept,
or by changing the parameters. For me, changing the concept once in a while really helps keep things fresh and leads to a lot of new ideas. It also has helped me discover what Im good at, what Im not so good at,
what I like and what I dont like. It's helping me discover myself.
You just never know until you try
I think of the design process as a personal decision making and problem solving process. I do think mathematics play an important role in it, but that part is worked out more through intuition rather than rote mechanical routine means.
... I can't figure out why my mind is so fixated on this form... not much of a doughnut eater. LOL
The Golden Torus:
You just never know until you try
I think of the design process as a personal decision making and problem solving process. I do think mathematics play an important role in it, but that part is worked out more through intuition rather than rote mechanical routine means.
... I can't figure out why my mind is so fixated on this form... not much of a doughnut eater. LOL
The Golden Torus:
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Hengelo_77
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A perfect design is one thing, realising it is an other.
If you work with natural materials, you are limited by the materials you can get.
Say you want to make a knife and sheeth out of the same piece of piece of wood, it can happen that you can not get a piece of the correct wood in the dimentions you need and with an interesting pattern trough out.
So I like to work the other way around.
I collect beautifull materials and handle them a lot. Just play with them.
Then in my head I start combining the matrials together and I start to see lines of a possible knife.
This way natural lines/forms/patterns in the wood, antler, other material can be used optimally.
The over all shape of the knife can compliment the natural beauty of the materials used.
On the other hand, pure function has a beauty of its own as well.
For example the way Randalls have there finger coil infront of the guard, so you can place your indexfinger there and pull the knife back. I find that very beautifull (and inspiring)
If you work with natural materials, you are limited by the materials you can get.
Say you want to make a knife and sheeth out of the same piece of piece of wood, it can happen that you can not get a piece of the correct wood in the dimentions you need and with an interesting pattern trough out.
So I like to work the other way around.
I collect beautifull materials and handle them a lot. Just play with them.
Then in my head I start combining the matrials together and I start to see lines of a possible knife.
This way natural lines/forms/patterns in the wood, antler, other material can be used optimally.
The over all shape of the knife can compliment the natural beauty of the materials used.
On the other hand, pure function has a beauty of its own as well.
For example the way Randalls have there finger coil infront of the guard, so you can place your indexfinger there and pull the knife back. I find that very beautifull (and inspiring)
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The Golden Triangle is also an isosceles triangle ABC with the property that bisecting the angle C produces a new triangle CXB which is a similar triangle to the original.
If angle BCX = α, then XCA = α because of the bisection, and CAB = α because of the similar triangles; ABC = 2α from the original isosceles symmetry, and BXC = 2α by similarity. The angles in a triangle add up to 180°, so 5α = 180, giving α = 36°. So the angles of the golden triangle are thus 36°-72°-72°. The angles of the remaining obtuse isosceles triangle AXC (sometimes called the golden gnomon) are 36°-36°-108°.
See... my instructor used to refer to the Golden Triangle as the 3 primary areas of attack for out low strikes that caused the most damage. It consisted of: One knee, two knee, weenie.
Tai Goo
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If we think about the 3D o torus form as an example, theres really more to it than meets the eye at first. Environment and subconscious condition do have a lot to do with it. When we start to think about all the forms, shapes, lines, textures etc., that can be derived,
extrapolated, arranged, organized, multiplied, divided, squared, etc., from the torus form and what they imply, we see it all around us,
just like the golden ratio. The mathematical and design possibilities are infinite with just one simple shape, ratio, or point etc.
However, it can help achieve flow, balance and visual continuity by deriving all the individual components of the visual design from one single form or idea.
The golden triangle and the golden ratio can be derived from the golden torus.
The designing is really in how we arrange and organize all the design elements, when, where, how and why ? Which brings us "full circle" back to "concept".
However, it can help achieve flow, balance and visual continuity by deriving all the individual components of the visual design from one single form or idea.
The golden triangle and the golden ratio can be derived from the golden torus.
The designing is really in how we arrange and organize all the design elements, when, where, how and why ? Which brings us "full circle" back to "concept".
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Sorry my brain is rotting from reading The Shape of Inner Space, but the rot forces me to point out that you're Caduceus blade isn't a torus. It's either a 4-torus or a 6-torus (I forget how many holes you have in it). Topologically, they're different...