What are the performance differences between Tomahawk eye vs Axe Wedge eye

[Old Axeman]

I wanted to bring this old post forward as I have been making some slip fit hafts lately from a local wood, Ohia, that resembles American Hickory in a lot of ways. I had never seen this post before and really enjoyed reading it, hope you do also !

 

[flexo]

Hello everyone! I have both types of handles, each has its advantages and disadvantages as already mentioned. I saw a video where the guy called the axes either Latin or Saxon depending on their handle system, the Saxon ones being the ones with a wedge. Contrary to what people seem to think, replacing a Latin handle in the woods is much more complicated than shaping a piece of wood for a Saxon handle, of which you will only have to carve a small part and fit a wedge.
Latin axes are not made for felling but more for cutting, most often on a block made from a whole tree lying down or a log. You only have to look at the balance of the axe to realize this.
the long and thin profiles are more made to cut the wood already on the ground, this must come from the fact that they did not have the right to lumber the big trees of the suzerain!
and felling is not accurate
As for the ease of removing a Latin handle, it depends... if you are used to removing it, it will come off easily, but otherwise, good luck...
The great advantage of Latin handles is that you can remove them and keep the axe head well wrapped up in a backpack and walk around looking innocent with a stick in your hand (the smartest guys will have guessed that the stick is in fact the handle) you can also have a longer or shorter handle in reserve to transform an axe into a hatchet or vice versa...
last point: it is quite possible to hollow out a pommel in a latin handle. the basques do it! and as for the reliability of the fitting, it is enough to leave a little more sticking out and to push it back in if necessary.
ps: i find "saxon" hafts easier to carve! (i do all my handles myself from tree to axe handle.)

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Hello everyone! I have both types of handles, each has its advantages and disadvantages as already mentioned. I saw a video where the guy called the axes either Latin or Saxon depending on their handle system, the Saxon ones being the ones with a wedge. Contrary to what people seem to think, replacing a Latin handle in the woods is much more complicated than shaping a piece of wood for a Saxon handle, of which you will only have to carve a small part and fit a wedge.
Latin axes are not made for felling but more for cutting, most often on a block made from a whole tree lying down or a log. You only have to look at the balance of the axe to realize this.
the long and thin profiles are more made to cut the wood already on the ground, this must come from the fact that they did not have the right to lumber the big trees of the suzerain!
and felling is not accurate
As for the ease of removing a Latin handle, it depends... if you are used to removing it, it will come off easily, but otherwise, good luck...
The great advantage of Latin handles is that you can remove them and keep the axe head well wrapped up in a backpack and walk around looking innocent with a stick in your hand (the smartest guys will have guessed that the stick is in fact the handle) you can also have a longer or shorter handle in reserve to transform an axe into a hatchet or vice versa...
last point: it is quite possible to hollow out a pommel in a latin handle. the basques do it! and as for the reliability of the fitting, it is enough to leave a little more sticking out and to push it back in if necessary.
ps: i find "saxon" hafts easier to carve! (i do all my handles myself from tree to axe handle.)

I respectfully but strongly disagree with many of the assertions in this post.

Much of the reason for the relative lack of a poll on axes of European origin stems not only from the fact that constructing them in the original methods was considerably easier than making them with a significant poll. Add in the fact that you can correct the balance issue by having a handle with the right curves or simply having a handle broad enough to counter the twisting force when horizontal is all it takes. While less than ideal for horizontal use, deep-bitted poll-less axes can still be used to fell quite easily. Secondly, while it's true that most firewood was coppiced historically, billhooks are a more common tool for this purpose, and specific varieties exist for cutting against a block. The various methods of felling employed in Europe tend to make greater use of the butt of the tree. The abundance of large trees in the USA made cutting up high more convenient than trimming away the buttresses of the trunk since there was more than enough wood above it that the waste was worth the savings in labor. In Europe large trees are comparatively precious and when felled they do so all the way at ground level, which requires paring away the buttresses and thickened base of the trunk to complete the cut, and much of this work is done vertically. The depth of the bit in these axes is an advantage in such work, especially since the eyes are usually large due to the lack of superior woods like hickory for handles. Positioning a large eye farther back helps keep it from interfering with the cut.

While it's true you only have to shape the tongue of a wedged handle...I'd hate to use one that didn't have additional shaping work done to it, AND the true challenge is in EXTRACTING the old handle, which we all know to be quite a labor-intensive process in even a workshop setting. The real advantage of the wedged eye is that you're essentially free of the constraints of the eye shape and positioning relative to the bit, and may have a large palm swell that wouldn't fit through the eye of the tool. While you do have to carve the entire length of the handle for a slip-fit axe to fit through the eye, if you're looking for something field expedient that only works okay but is enough to get work done...use a bundle of straight thin sticks jammed into the eye. I've done it before, and it sucks compared to a "real" handle, but it's fast and it works. Being able to remove the broken handle easily from the eye without special tools is the chief advantage, and no kerf or wedge being needed also makes the fitment of the replacement handle easy. You can have a very secure handle in a slip-fit axe that has large visible gaps in it, but the head will be completely secure and safe. Wedge fits are more exacting to get them similarly tight. Taking the head off can have an advantage for storing the head, I suppose, but it's always pretty obvious when someone is carrying a tool handle rather than a "simple stick" but having multiple handles that fit the same head to adapt it to different tasks is MUCH more of an advantage.

 

[Old Axeman]

FTB--I have a few slip fit European heads that have no eye taper from the the top of the haft opening to the bottom of the opening, the same size all the way through the eye. I am finding that with proper haft craft work on the non taper eye axes I have no problems with these hafts coming loose under hard use. AND, I still have the advantage of a fast haft change or replacement. Would you comment on this. As you know, almost all of my experience is with wedge fit hafts.

 

[Hickory n steel]

, AND the true challenge is in EXTRACTING the old handle, which we all know to be quite a labor-intensive process in even a workshop setting.

removing a handle you want to save can be difficult, but if the handle is in true need of replacing it's not difficult at all.
Just saw the wood off above the shoulder, and the tongue is quite easily knocked right out the top.
I certainly would not want to try making a handle in the field without the use of a saw, so I would definitely have one on me.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

FTB--I have a few slip fit European heads that have no eye taper from the the top of the haft opening to the bottom of the opening, the same size all the way through the eye. I am finding that with proper haft craft work on the non taper eye axes I have no problems with these hafts coming loose under hard use. AND, I still have the advantage of a fast haft change or replacement. Would you comment on this. As you know, almost all of my experience is with wedge fit hafts.

Unusual for there to be zero taper at all but most tapered eyes only have like a 1° or less taper to them anyhow, and a shallow eye depth so there's very little change in dimension. The biggest potential issue I can see with them is that if the handle shrinks at all it'll be more labor-intensive to shore up again, due to the geometry of the interface, whereas a handle for a tapered eye will have the correct slope already present so tightening it up would just require a few taps upside down to re-seat it.

removing a handle you want to save can be difficult, but if the handle is in true need of replacing it's not difficult at all.
Just saw the wood off above the shoulder, and the tongue is quite easily knocked right out the top.
I certainly would not want to try making a handle in the field without the use of a saw, so I would definitely have one on me.

That's part of the issue with saws. If you have to replace a haft in the woods, chances are you're in a real remote setting and have urgent need rather than just heading back to the workshop. And saws are delicate tools easily damaged by, say, encountering the underside of the head by accident when trying to cut close enough to matter. And what are you knocking it with? How are you holding the head steady? I'm curious if this has been put into practice in the field vs. in a workshop setting? Never mind that many wedge-fit axe heads actually have a waisted eye that's narrowest about 2/3 of the way down the eye rather than a constant taper top to bottom. Not easy to drive the tongue out of eyes like that in my experience if the wedge isn't easily pulled. It makes for a lot of drilling and cussing and fixtures of one kind or another for keeping the head still and secure while you work to knock the tongue out. Part of the challenge with driving something out like that in the field is especially that you need clearance for it to even move enough, let alone fully clear the eye, yet still have the head completely secured. There's always the old burning the eye out trick, but that's slow and requires care to avoid overheating the bit in the process, though an axe head with a destroyed heat treatment is still better than no axe in such a setting.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Never mind that many wedge-fit axe heads actually have a waisted eye that's narrowest about 2/3 of the way down the eye rather than a constant taper top to bottom.

I have only ever seen this on drilling hammers myself, but I don't doubt that there are axes made this way.

As far as in the field vs a shop, when I started in the hobby of axes as a teenager all I had to work handles with was a hacksaw a 4 in hand a hammer and a knife.
I might as well have been doing this in the wilderness.
If I had to do this in the field unexpectedly I'd just have to be careful or cut a little further down and whittle on the excess.
If planning for this I'd just take my MXZ folding saw with me since it takes recip blades.
I don't have one of the leatherman models that uses replaceable T shank blades but those models are popular and with that the worry of dulling your saw is alleviated.

To knock it out just use the broken handle or any stick and hit it with anything you can find.
To hold the head steady just bury the bit into whatever stump you were using around camp...etc
I have put an axe basically in my lap while clearing out the eye, not easy on my legs but I've done it a time or two
when all my good tools that I inherited from my grandfather were at my dads house and I lived with my mom, I had almost no tools and made do with whatever I could as a teenager.

On paper it's easy to say that a wedge fit rehang would require this and that or it's much harder because of this or that, but I've removed bad handles with almost nothing before with minimal effort.
Just a saw a striking implement and a drifting implement.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I have only ever seen this on drilling hammers myself, but I don't doubt that there are axes made this way.

As far as in the field vs a shop, when I started in the hobby of axes as a teenager all I had to work handles with was a hacksaw a 4 in hand a hammer and a knife.
I might as well have been doing this in the wilderness.
If I had to do this in the field unexpectedly I'd just have to be careful or cut a little further down and whittle on the excess.
If planning for this I'd just take my MXZ folding saw with me since it takes recip blades.
I don't have one of the leatherman models that uses replaceable T shank blades but those models are popular and with that the worry of dulling your saw is alleviated.

To knock it out just use the broken handle or any stick and hit it with anything you can find.
To hold the head steady just bury the bit into whatever stump you were using around camp...etc
I have put an axe basically in my lap while clearing out the eye, not easy on my legs but I've done it a time or two
when all my good tools that I inherited from my grandfather were at my dads house and I lived with my mom, I had almost no tools and made do with whatever I could as a teenager.

On paper it's easy to say that a wedge fit rehang would require this and that or it's much harder because of this or that, but I've removed bad handles with almost nothing before with minimal effort.
Just a saw a striking implement and a drifting implement.

Basically all wedge fit axes have some degree of flare at the base of the eye--it's what makes them more forgiving to wedge-fit than slip-fit eyes which have a linear taper. The difference becomes very apparent if you try to wedge-fit a slip-fit eyed head. It's doable but it's a lot more finicky than usual. I've personally never had a wedge-fit head relinquish the tongue anywhere near that easily--if you're able to some day I'd love to see a video of your process. To be clear, that's not me doubting you can do it so much as being baffled as to how, because I've had many heads where I cut 'em off right under the head and tried popping it out the top and nothing short of my shop press would knock the darn thing loose even with the wedge all drilled out, sometimes even with it heavily excavated with a carbide burr. If there's an easier surefire way I'd love to do it better!

 

[Hickory n steel]

The axes you've dealt with were probably hung better than the stuff I was dealing with.
I don't know why I've had luck with clearing eyes out relatively easily, but for some reason I have.
These days I use my bench vise when knocking handle tongues out because the way I did it as a teenager was terrible and I stopped as soon as I had a better way.

 

[Square_peg]

The biggest problem with slip-fit axes is that most have a big fat eye that gets in the way when bucking or felling. The fat eye forces you to cut at steeper and steeper angles as you get deeper in the cut.

This is undoubtedly why narrow axe eyes were invented.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The biggest problem with slip-fit axes is that most have a big fat eye that gets in the way when bucking or felling. The fat eye forces you to cut at steeper and steeper angles as you get deeper in the cut.

This is undoubtedly why narrow axe eyes were invented.

Yes and no, in that the way that most slip fit axes tend to deal with that issue is by positioning the eye toward the rear of the head, giving a very deep bit compared to American (and other) style axes, and this puts the full dimension of the eye inside the umbra of the edge angle, which then means the eye never collides. Alternatively, you take paring cuts off one face of the notch to widen it, which also works with the thin bits many of them have. But deep bits do have drawbacks including wobble on impact (though this can also be used to advantage in some respects) and a narrow eye accomplishes a few things, like allowing the eye to be placed closer to the edge without causing that interference, making it overall more stable (presuming a straight or nearly-straight handle) but also reduces the minimum size of the billet needed for filling the eye, which allows for a reduced shoulder, and an overall whippier resulting handle. Meanwhile a larger eye allows you to use less-ideal wood species/grades to achieve requisite strength. There exist many wedge fit axes with large eyes, such as in Russia where birch is the only suitable wood they have for axe handles, and there do exist slip-fit axes with narrow eyes, but it makes the whole handle very thin. Calabria pattern axes are an example. There's also wedged axes with modestly sized eyes and very deep bits, like some kinds of English felling axes.