What are the rules in London re: EDC?

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pauljgallant

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I am travelling to London next week and want to go prepared. I also do not want to rot in an English jail if I am found in possession of a BM 742. Does anyome know the carry laws over there? Thanks for the help.

PJG
 
You might wanna wait for an UK member, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal to carry ANYTHING that can be used as an SD weapon, much more a knife :(

NsB
 
Heck, from what I've heard, if you get into a SD situation and stab your attacker with a *pen*, you'll probably get prosecuted. :rolleyes: Don't want those poor criminals to be injured, now do we?

Asha'man
 
anything carried "for self defense" is classed as an offensive weapon and will get confiscated and could get you arrested.

most kubuton type devices will be recognised as such by the police, although a mini-maglite or surefire type flashlight is usually fine.

you may carry a small folding knife for utility use but the blade must be shorter than 3 inches and be non locking, ie a slipjoint. most saks wouldnt raise a single eyebrow, especially if carried by a tourist etc.

you may legally carry larger knives, locking blades, fixed blades etc if you can demonstrate a 'good reason' if challenged. it must actually be a good reason though. no one will believe you need that 8 inch bowie for hunting if you're in the middle of trafalger square !! :D

my 'good reason' for carrying a locking blade knife (bm 555s) is safety. my brother had a penknife close on his hand whilst working and now has a very mangled barely useful left index finger, and i dont want the same happening to me, officer.

in my limited experience the length of the blade is more important to the police than if it locks or not and you really need a truly great reason for carrying a fixed blade knife of any type in an urban type area.

like most places, the laws are there to be interpreted by the police officer on the ground AT THAT MOMENT. as always be polite and calm, pass the attitude test and you'll soon be on your way.

hope you have a great stay in the uk, oh and stay out of mcd's - compared to US mcd's the food here is dreadful although the staff actually speak english!!
 
Hello,

I agree with most of what HK says.... apart from McDs!! They're not that bad, better than BK. If you want truly BAD Burgers, Try McDs in the South of France.

Carrying a blade legally in UK, is OK - 3" Max SHARPENED EDGE, therefore, the blade may be longer, but not have a sharpened edge of more than 3". I have on one or two occasions ground flat part of an edge, to make it legal for EDC. You may have a problem explaining this to a policeman, but nevertheless, that's what the Criminal Justice and Offensive weapons act states. He'll be impressed that you know more than he does.

Liner and spine locks are OK, so long as you keep them in your pocket. The blade does NOT become locked, until you physically lock it.

Fixed blades are forbidden, unless you can prove reasonable cause for carrying it. I can't think of any that would be accepted for carrying a neck knife, or concealed fixed blade, of any type. You will be arrested on the spot... but then soon thereafter, released on bail to appear at a Magistrates court. Expect a fine of at least $75, but you won't go to jail. There is no such thing as bail surety in UK. You could be bailed after committing murder, on your own promise to return. Civilised, aren't we?

Using a knife as a weapon of defence..... illegal here, as it is in US. Anything, even a pencil, when used as a weapon, changes status. The most innocuous article becomes a 'weapon of offence'. Certain items are classified as OFFENSIVE weapons, which are a different kettle of fish, but a 3" pocket blade isn't one of them. A fixed blade is, however. Use one as a weapon, and you WILL go to jail!!

Pepper sprays, mace, pepper powder, tear gas pens, electric stunners are all OFFENSIVE weapons in the UK, though strangely, easily obtainable.

BTW, I checked out the above facts, with the Home Office, and they are correct. Most UK laws, are a matter of interpretation. Use a knife as a defensive weapon, and you will be arrested QED. Having said that, if you did not start the fight, UK law gives you the right to use 'reasonable force, and take reasonable measures' to PROTECT your OWN life, and that of others, dependent on you. If this is the case, you will be released, following a short formal procedure. The knife though, is history.

Most of all though, remember this.

You will NOT get searched by the British police, unless you do something to arouse their suspicion. Most police officers will probably let you get away with a reasonable EDC blade of say 4". It is not worth the paperwork, or time taken to prepare a caseto prosecute you. British police officers ALWAYS have discretion.... be polite and corteous, and you should be OK.

I have walked the streets of UK for over 40 years, London included, and have yet to be stopped by the police, never mind asked to empty my pockets.

Here is a tip. It is NOT illegal to posess any bladed weapon in UK, indeed shops sell them quite openly. If you purchased one, new, or second hand, how are you going to get it back to your hotel? Carry it of course.

Have a good holiday

:rolleyes:

Doug
 
The law is the same, wherever you are in UK, and Northern Ireland. The laws do not change with county boundaries/police force areas.

Doug
 
As said above, a great tip is always to be polite to police. Say, 'hello', 'thankyou' et al.

I've never been searched either. Even after I fought someone who attacked me and the police were called to the scene...probably because I look like such a wimp!

If you are the victim of a crime attempted on your person, and you fight back and win...you could run. Normally if someone tries to mug you, they will make sure no witnesses are around.

And if you ever take your knife out to use in a non-self defence situation, use both hands to open it...or people will run away!
 
Butterfly knifes and automatic knives may not be carried for any reason in the UK. I understand the reasoning behind automatic knifes but are butterfly knives that much faster than a standard folder.
I usualy have a three inch opinel in my pocket. If we're going anywhere 'civilised' I have an antique 1 inch penknife that fits in my change pocket - used for sharpening pencils ( I always have a notepad and pencil in my back pocket on account poor memory ), digging splinters out of fingers etc.

I did change my mind about going into town the other week after felling a tree for someone at our local literature group - I figure it would be hard to explain a two foot machete and a large folding saw being in my bag.

The law tend to be very strict on the 'reasonable force' aspect as well - a guy's recently got life for stabbing a burglar twenty times ( a lot of them in the back ) with a kitchen knife. Shooting someone five times in the back with a shotgun whilst they're already on the floor was also not deemed 'reasonable force' a few years ago,

I've never had trouble with the police - I was stopped once at 3am walking home with my rucksack as they'd had a report of a burglary in the area but they didn't even bother to check my pockets when they saw I didn't match the description.

I've also openly carried serious fixed blades whilst in full dark age reenactment costume, right in front of mounted police, they were very friendly and not at all concerned over a six 'stilletto' type thing on my belt, a three foot seaux across the small of my back and a mates claymore over the shoulder - all sharp. I was just nice and polite, and also barefoot and freezing in nothing other than a loincloth so clearly not out to cause trouble

Bile
 
HK's advice is good. If you are discreet then you are unlikely to get into a situation where the knife is discovered.
Be aware that there are now a lot of metal detection archways etc. appearing in civic offices, courts, major company reception areas, even shops etc, and an embarrasing discovery could be made.
You will require a reasonable excuse to "have with you" any "article with a blade" in a public place. Concealment doesn't come into it. This even means a screwdriver, but lets be sensible. A number of "reasonable excuses" are written into the law, including a knife worn as part of a national costume (become a Scot!)or carried for religious reasons (become a Jedi!). Other reasonable excuses, like HK says will depend on time / place / situation etc. and will depend on the Officers, and sunbsequently the Court's, opinion.
A folding pocket knife with a CUTTING EDGE (not sharpened edge) of less than 3" is a lawful carry per se, so remember an MBC trainer still has a "cutting edge" whether it is blunt or not. ANY other bladed instrument will require a "reasonable excuse" to possess. Stated cases have said that a person still "had with him" a knife when it was 20 feet away in his car glovebox, he was searched on the street, and then his parked car was searched nearby and the knife found, he was convicted of "having with him" a bladed article, i.e. he still had access to it. Also, unfortunately, due to Case Law from a few years ago, any device which locks the knife in an open position makes a knife fall out of the definition of "folding pocket knife", and you again need a reasonable excuse for possession. Until this is successfully challenged, locking knives are NOT exempt under the sub 3" folder rule.
Also, some bladed articles ARE unlawful in this country, to sell or possess, and walking back to a hotel with a push dagger, auto or a balli (to name a few of the banned weapons) will get you nicked if you bought it in good faith or not.
As regard to offensive weapons, absolutely anything you use which is made, adapted or intended for causing injury is unlawful in a public place. Public places can be anywhere the public have access to, whether by payment or otherwise.
I'm not defending or condeming our laws, they're just our laws as they stand at the moment. My Country Right Or Wrong.

All is not dark though, and even if discovered the Officer has absolute discretion. Discovering a Cuda Max or a Civillian would have different reactions to a discreet lock knife or slightly too large a blade. Honestly, don't worry about it, just enjoy your holiday. 90% of Coppers are sensible, (no, really!) and some are knife knuts so just bung them a Sebenza and they'll let you walk. :D
 
Hopefully I'm not off topic, but we hear over here that the people of England cannot own firearms as of about 3 years ago. I've heard that violent crime has skyrocketed in that time. Is this partially true, totally true, way off or otherwise? Thanks.
 
Not much to add to this, except to confirm Zardoz's take on the locking blade issue.

I did some research on this about a year ago, and there were several cases where blade length was accepted to be under 3" and the prosecution was due to the locking blade. The prosecutor who brought the original case argued (interpreted) that, because the law exepmted a "folding pocket knife with a cutting edge of 3" or less", that this exemption did not cover a lock knife because the blade would not "fold in use" ( :eek: !!!!!!!) This is clearly absurd (the only blade that I can think of that is designed to fold in use is a straight razor), and the judge in a later appeal observed this while still upholding the original conviction.

This appeal looked in to the legislative intent and found that the reason for the inclusion of the word "folding" was that Stanley Knives (work knives with *sliding* blades ~1") and the like were to be excluded from the exemption as they were a weapon of choice in many crimes. The case also looked into the purpose of locks on knives (I think someone from Whitby was consulted), but did not find enough weight to overturn the conviction. One of the comments made by the judge was that the rights of the minority were less important than the safety of the public. Heil!

HK

my 'good reason' for carrying a locking blade knife (bm 555s) is safety. my brother had a penknife close on his hand whilst working and now has a very mangled barely useful left index finger, and i dont want the same happening to me, officer.
Click to expand...

A very similar thing happened to me. My SAK folded and moved away from the material I was cutting, it then flicked back open and cut the tendon in my left index as it passed over. I do not believe that this constitutes a "good reason". Your reason needs to be related to what you are using the knife for (other than religious/national costume). Having said this, I'll take my chances. I have a medical record to back me up if it ever goes to court.

Message to all the Brits: If you guys have any evidence or reference materials that will help undo this case law I would be very interested in seeing it.

Dom
 
Semi Auto rifles/carbines (excl. 22 rimfire) were banned 16 years ago after the Hungerford massacre. Handguns were banned shortly after Dunblane massacre. Some firearms and shotguns can still be got though. Generally things that are harder to ban due to their utility. Its only a matter of time until some farmer goes nuts and gets shotguns banned, though.

Thing that gets me is that both of the guys who did the massacres had illegal firearms, but chose to use their legal ones, dropping all of us in the sh*t. Guess gun laws weren't their main concern, though.

I don't know how the crime rate has changed over the past few years. We keep being told its down, but these effects can be due to changes in the ways that crime is reported/defined. For example, one report showed tat violent crime was down, but it then emerged that they excluded all the kids under 15 or 16 who were being mugged (for cell phones etc.) in their definition of 'violent crime'. Maybe cause
they can't vote :rolleyes: There is also a huge ingrease in 'Black on Black' gun crime.

Problem for all us hoplophiles is that the people who criticize/srutinise the government are largley anti-weapon and will swallow any argument that the gun laws were necessary. The most likely argument is "If its this much worse now, imagine how much worse it would have been if we HADN'T banned handguns!" The majority of Brits are so seasoned in the argument that guns/weapons are bad that they can't question it, even the ones who should know better.

A friend of mine in the military once said "As long as the Sun reader has the vote, this will never be GREAT Britain"

Touche.
 
Originally posted by Little claw
As long as the Sun reader has the vote, this will never be GREAT Britain"
Click to expand...
So sadly true... Replace 'Sun' for 'Clarin' and that would work for Argentina too.... And MANY other countries for that matter :(
I HATE stupid people :mad: :

NsB
 
[rant]
I normally lurk here, but after reading this thread shudder to think what America would be like if the sheeple took over.

Let your voice be heard on Nov 4th to help protect our freedoms!
[/rant]
 
Gentlemen,

First let me say that I have traveled to the UK and London often. I have always enjoyed my visits.

As with travel to any location the most important self defense weapon is the mind. Be alert, know where not to go.

However, I take issue with the quote below.


Originally posted by savantuk

Using a knife as a weapon of defence..... illegal here, as it is in US. Anything, even a pencil, when used as a weapon, changes status.
Click to expand...

In most US states self defense is legal, in many it is expected.

Here in Texas, I am allowed to carry a knife with a blade length no longer than 1400 mm (approx 5.5 inches by our archaic American measurement system). That knife may be used in self defense. We are also allowed after a background check, knowledge and skills testing, to carry a handgun concealed for the purposes of self defense. That is true in some 30 other states.

Anyone choosing to defend themselves using deadly force must be able to convince a jury that they were in reasonable fear of bodily harm or harm to their family or others and that there was no possibility of retreat.

I regret that you (collectively not the individuals posting here)in the UK, certain US states,Australia, and Canada have chosen to give up the right to defense of self and family.
 
I sometimes think of our Government as an dodgy insurance salesman:

Take your money, wrap you in a warm, fuzzy, false sense of security and what happens when you need to collect?

And we're the little old lady who places more value in 'peace of mind' than the ability to deal with our own problems.

Most people I know are suprised (and usually agrumentative) when I inform them that the orignal purpose of a knife is not 'weapon'.

I hate stupid people, unless they're blond, pretty and have have big tits. Then they're okay.

:footinmou

BTW. We still have the right to self defence, we just don't have the right to carry any item that would make it possible.
 
Originally posted by hotel kilo

most kubuton type devices will be recognised as such by the police, although a mini-maglite or surefire type flashlight is usually fine.
Click to expand...

My best mates a copper in Merseyside. I was discussing self-defense implements with him and three other coppers a few months ago and none of them knew what a kubuton, koppo stick or comtech stinger was. They also seemed to be pretty ignorant of being able to use a pen (or similar implement) as a koppo stick. Two of these guys have various martial arts training as well. I dont know whether this lack of knowledge is just Merseyside or can be applied nore generally over the rest of the UK.
PJG, if you feel you need to carry something for self-protection in London (40,000 muggings last year in London) I suggest one of the above as a police officer may not recognise them as a dedicated weapon.
Enjoy your stay and DO stay clear of Mcds
 
This post repeats a lot of what other people have said. However, for those interested in the nitty-gritty of this issue I thought it would be useful to explain some of the points in more detail.

The starting point is to examine the relevant legislation. The most relevant legislation comprises:

• Prevention of Crime Act 1953

• Criminal Justice Act 1988 (see http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880033_en_1.htm)

• Offensive Weapons Act 1996 (see http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996026.htm)

• Knives Act 1997 (see http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1997/1997021.htm)

• Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 (see http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1988/Uksi_19882019_en_2.htm )

• Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 2002 (see http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20021668.htm)

In terms of carrying an "EDC" knife, the most relevant provision is section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which deals with the offence of having "an article with blade or point in public place". Section 139A is very similar except it deals with having such an article on school premises.

Section 139(2) provides that section 139 applies to "any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife". However, this is subject to section 139(3), which provides that section 139 still applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches. The effect of this is that if you want to rely on the "folding pocketknife" exception in section 139(2), your "folding pocketknife" must have a cutting edge no longer than three inches. If your folding pocketknife has a cutting edge that is longer than 3 inches then you are committing an offence under section 139 unless you fall within the scope of the "good reason" defence outlined in section 139(4) or the "I need it for work or religious reasons or as part of my national costume" defence in section 139(5).

If your knife is not a "folding pocketknife" at all then the length of the cutting edge is totally irrelevant for the purposes of section 139. In other words, if it has a blade or is sharply pointed and it is not a folding pocketknife then it is an offence to carry it in public unless you have a defence under section 139(4) or (5). The term "folding pocketknife" is not defined in the Criminal Justice Act 1988. This begs the question of whether a folding knife which has a lockable blade qualifies as a "folding pocketknife". I haven't researched this, but Zardoz's and Little Claw's posts indicates that English courts have accepted the argument that a folding knife with a locking blade is not a "folding pocketknife". I doubt that English courts have drawn a distinction between liner locks, spine locks and other types of locks. Maybe if someone has time they could go to a law library to research this!

So to summarise: if a folding knife has a locking blade, it seems that this is not a "folding pocketknife" for the purposes of section 139(2), and no matter how long or short the cutting edge is, it is an offence to carry it in public unless you have a defence under section 139(4) or (5).

Where do "offensive weapons" fit into this picture? One relevant provision is section 141(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which says that a person commits an offence if he "manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies". Note that under section 141, possession on its own is not unlawful – it has to be possession for the purpose of sale or hire. However, possession will give rise to problems under other legislation, for example section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse – subject to arrest without warrant under section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984).

Folks in the UK should also bear in mind that importation of an "offensive weapon" is an offence under section 141(4) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.

There are defences under section 141 in respect of weapons which are made available to a museum or gallery or used for cultural, artistic or educational purposes if lent or hired from a museum or gallery, and in respect of weapons used for the purposes of the Crown or of a visiting force as defined in section 141(6). Antique weapons, which are defined as weapons over 100 years old at the time of an alleged offence, are also excluded.

So what is an offensive weapon for the purposes of section 141? The answer is contained in the Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988, as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 2002. This Schedule simply sets out a list of different types of weapons, including push daggers, balisongs, blowpipes, and disguised or concealed blades. Note that it does not refer specifically to fixed blades, nor does it refer to automatic knives or knives for the purpose of self defence generally.

It is very important to bear in mind that the definition of "offensive weapon" under the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 is much wider, and more general, than the definition of that term for the purposes of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. For the purposes of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, an "offensive weapon" is "any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use by him or by some other person".

Hope this helps!
 
Since 'folding' isn't defined, I suppose one could go to the Oxford English dictionary to back up their right to carry a locking blade as long as it 'folds'.

Sometimes I wonder if the vast majority of the people in this country are even awake, or realise what life is like in 21st Century Britain.

My girlfriend thinks I'm a paranoid nutcase for carrying a Spyderco Dragonfly...and she's been attacked 4 times on the street!
 
You leave me no choice but to post (in "BladeForums.com Political Arena") an editorial that I just submitted for print for all the masses (I mean dumb *****) to enjoy.
 
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