What are the "super steels"? INFI, CPM3V ... what else?

[LX_Emergency]

That is true, but on the other side of the coin, I've had a Buck Vanguard in 420HC and several CS Voyagers in AUS 8A absolutely blow away a couple of knives in S30V when it first came out, and the S30V came from very famous makers who should have known better. S30V heat treated poorly is absolute crap, only a step above pot metal, IMO.

Also, please do not underestimate the grind. A thin hollow grind will outperform a thick flat grind in many jobs no matter what the steel composition and/or heat treat is like.

 

[flatblackcapo]

Why waste your time on "super steel" ? That is so last year. I have since moved on to "super duper steel" .

 

[flarp]

Rosta-Frei is the best steel on earth! Mon

That thread is awesome.

 

[me2]

That is true, but on the other side of the coin, I've had a Buck Vanguard in 420HC and several CS Voyagers in AUS 8A absolutely blow away a couple of knives in S30V when it first came out, and the S30V came from very famous makers who should have known better. S30V heat treated poorly is absolute crap, only a step above pot metal, IMO.

If all the knives have a proper heat treat, then I would agree to your statement. I've been burned too many times (read $$) to ever trust S30V again.

Ah, there's the critical point. Wear resistance does not = edge holding, especially for hand held knives. My memory seems to recall that early S30V blades dulled by microchipping and edge fracturing. They still had higher wear resistance, but that was irrelevant.

This will probably get flamed, but there are circumstances where something like O1 or W1 can cut longer than S30V or D2 or whatever high wear steel, but those circumstances are rarely found in the knives of most users. I have my first S30V blade and I have to say, so far I'm not really impressed. I'm not disappointed, but I'm not going out of my way for another. IIRC, much of the initial issue with S30V was the lack of a properly tweaked heat treatment. I'd hope that has been worked out by now, but I'm with you. I got this S30V blade by accident, and I doubt I'll go looking for another.

 

[Cobalt]

No amount of forging or week long heat treatment by any smith will give W2, 1084, or 52100 the wear resistance of S30V.

very true. However, no matter what HT you use, you will never make S30V as tough as a properly heat treated or forged carbon steel. By a long shot. I would rather have the toughness on a fixed blade than the wear resistance.

 

[The Mastiff]

why is 440c considered the world's first super steel?

Revisionist. It wasn't considered a super steel back when it was that, or 440A. It was better in some ways than 440A and therefore custom makers began to use it. Better production companies like Gerber used 440C in their folder line as a base steel.

Their "super steels" were vascowear and M2, and of course L6. Steels such as then fairly common W2, O-1,L-6, etc outperformed 440C for most cutting purposes and still do for real users like hunting guides, and hunters that clean dozens of game animals a year. High sharpness, easy resharpening and great edge quality plus toughness put those steels ahead of 440C for me despite somewhat better wear resistance at the cost of large carbides and the problems they bring with 440C. For pretty knives, art knives etc. the stainless steels made sense then as they do now but us knife knuts back then didn't look to any stainless steels for real performance.

The first stainless that I had respect for wasn't 440C, but Gin 1 used by Spyderco. It had smaller grain structure and gave better edges. Likewise 12C27 appeared sometime, not sure when exactly and that went over pretty well. It has a good grain structure and is capable of pretty high sharpness ( relative, compared to 440C anything does better IMO).

So, that's how I recall 440C and it's place in the knife world. Ask a knife maker that did knives more for looks than use and they'll talk good about it. The first real "super steel" stainless that I remember was 154cm, then ATS 34.

Joe

 

[Styg]

Rosta-Frei is the best steel on earth! Mon

I'm going with this. Low cost, excellent rust/corrosion resistance, and incredibly easy to maintain. As in two to four passes on the bottom of a coffee mug easy to maintain. I'm really a huge fan of SAK steel on a SAK. I wouldn't want a larger dedicated or fixed blade out of it but I think for a SAK it's completely ideal.

Is the term super steel just industry created and fan perpetuated? Are there actual scientific ways to classify a super steel?

 

[Mikael W]

Also, please do not underestimate the grind. A thin hollow grind will outperform a thick flat grind in many jobs no matter what the steel composition and/or heat treat is like.

The grind and cross-sectional edge geometry, are central for top performance of a given steel and heat-treatment.

My personal preference is the convex grind also on thin knives.
If the knife happens to be hollow or flat ground, I increase performance by putting on a convexed cutting edge.

Regards

Mikael

 

[singularity35]

I'm going with this. Low cost, excellent rust/corrosion resistance, and incredibly easy to maintain. As in two to four passes on the bottom of a coffee mug easy to maintain. I'm really a huge fan of SAK steel on a SAK. I wouldn't want a larger dedicated or fixed blade out of it but I think for a SAK it's completely ideal.

Is the term super steel just industry created and fan perpetuated? Are there actual scientific ways to classify a super steel?

Hahaha. I think you got that wrong.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/168550-Rosta-Frei-Steel-is-1!

 

[Styg]

Hahaha. I think you got that wrong.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/168550-Rosta-Frei-Steel-is-1!

I've seen that before, but I've acutally heard people calling SAK steel rosta-frei. Normally when they are sarcastically bashing me for only carrying a super tinker compared to their bigger benchmade/spyderco in much higher end steel.

 

[singularity35]

I've seen that before, but I've acutally heard people calling SAK steel rosta-frei. Normally when they are sarcastically bashing me for only carrying a super tinker compared to their bigger benchmade/spyderco in much higher end steel.

Don't you mean rost-frei?

 

[MunroClansman]

When you compare two items, it's best to compare them at comparable levels or you'd just be comparing apples to oranges.

Try your 420HC against S90V both with good heat treats, and compare edge retention. You'll soon see which one is super.

I think you may have missed my point. All things equal, S90V will far perform better than 420HC. This was not a post intended to promote lower-end steels, but to argue that steel is not the most important thing in a knife as many people seem to think. Sure, it is important, but I am far more likely to consider a blade based on shape, grind, handle ergonomics, etc. I would never refuse to buy a knife because it is made of 1095 and not CPM 3V.

Would a 3/8" thick, tanto-blade, sabre-ground blade made of [insert super steel] cut better than a 1/8" drop point with a full-convex blade made of 10xx? Doubtful. Blades made from S90V or 3V may have more potential, but they are not inherently better.

And not all heat treats are created equal.

 

[Mikael W]

I think you may have missed my point. All things equal, S90V will far perform better than 420HC. This was not a post intended to promote lower-end steels, but to argue that steel is not the most important thing in a knife as many people seem to think. Sure, it is important, but I am far more likely to consider a blade based on shape, grind, handle ergonomics, etc. I would never refuse to buy a knife because it is made of 1095 and not CPM 3V.

Would a 3/8" thick, tanto-blade, sabre-ground blade made of [insert super steel] cut better than a 1/8" drop point with a full-convex blade made of 10xx? Doubtful. Blades made from S90V or 3V may have more potential, but they are not inherently better.

And not all heat treats are created equal.

It's easy to second this opinion!
The geometry and heat-treat are more important than the steel, but if the steel is high end, this is a big +.
The users sharpening skills are also of great importance, to get the best out of the steel.

Regards

Mikael

 

[singularity35]

I think you may have missed my point. All things equal, S90V will far perform better than 420HC. This was not a post intended to promote lower-end steels, but to argue that steel is not the most important thing in a knife as many people seem to think. Sure, it is important, but I am far more likely to consider a blade based on shape, grind, handle ergonomics, etc. I would never refuse to buy a knife because it is made of 1095 and not CPM 3V.

Would a 3/8" thick, tanto-blade, sabre-ground blade made of [insert super steel] cut better than a 1/8" drop point with a full-convex blade made of 10xx? Doubtful. Blades made from S90V or 3V may have more potential, but they are not inherently better.

And not all heat treats are created equal.

I did not miss your point at all, it seems you missed mine.

To reiterate: Don't compare apples to oranges.

 

[sodak]

Also, please do not underestimate the grind. A thin hollow grind will outperform a thick flat grind in many jobs no matter what the steel composition and/or heat treat is like.

Good point. I agree.

Ah, there's the critical point. Wear resistance does not = edge holding, especially for hand held knives. My memory seems to recall that early S30V blades dulled by microchipping and edge fracturing. They still had higher wear resistance, but that was irrelevant.

This will probably get flamed, but there are circumstances where something like O1 or W1 can cut longer than S30V or D2 or whatever high wear steel, but those circumstances are rarely found in the knives of most users. I have my first S30V blade and I have to say, so far I'm not really impressed. I'm not disappointed, but I'm not going out of my way for another. IIRC, much of the initial issue with S30V was the lack of a properly tweaked heat treatment. I'd hope that has been worked out by now, but I'm with you. I got this S30V blade by accident, and I doubt I'll go looking for another.

You let the cat out of the bag! Now you're being tracked! Yeah, there are a lot of variables to this...

very true. However, no matter what HT you use, you will never make S30V as tough as a properly heat treated or forged carbon steel. By a long shot. I would rather have the toughness on a fixed blade than the wear resistance.

That's true too. I actually really like 52100 for a lot of things, even though it doesn't come out on top on the steel charts. It has a LOT of properties that I really like. Same with INFI. Even though it's continually promoted for it's toughness, that's not what I like about it (but I'm not complaining either). For whatever reason, I find it - by far - the easiest steel for me to sharpen. I'm sure it's my technique and choice of stones, but I can get INFI to an absolute screaming hair-splitting edge in 1/10th the time that it takes me for any other steel. I've given up thinking about it, I just use it...

 

[Styg]

Don't you mean rost-frei?

Nope, I mean rosta-frei. They even use a fake jamaican accent. It's just these two guys I know that do it.

 

[singularity35]

Rosta-Frei is the best steel on earth! Mon

I'm going with this. Low cost, excellent rust/corrosion resistance, and incredibly easy to maintain. As in two to four passes on the bottom of a coffee mug easy to maintain. I'm really a huge fan of SAK steel on a SAK. I wouldn't want a larger dedicated or fixed blade out of it but I think for a SAK it's completely ideal.

Is the term super steel just industry created and fan perpetuated? Are there actual scientific ways to classify a super steel?

I've seen that before, but I've acutally heard people calling SAK steel rosta-frei. Normally when they are sarcastically bashing me for only carrying a super tinker compared to their bigger benchmade/spyderco in much higher end steel.

Nope, I mean rosta-frei. They even use a fake jamaican accent. It's just these two guys I know that do it.

Somehow I think you're just trying to squirm out of a mistake you made.

 

[bdmicarta]

The geometry and heat-treat are more important than the steel, but if the steel is high end, this is a big +.

All 3 factors are important to the performance of a blade but the OP asked specifically about the steel and not the heat treat or blade geometry or anything else.

Somebody else said it was a bull**** marketing term and this is somewhat correct too. "super___" is a label given to something that is beyond common. I grew up reading about Ferrari and Lamborghini and other manufacturers of "supercars". I don't think the manufacturers labeled their cars as such but the media or the car enthusiasts sure did. They didn't define what makes a car super but it was pretty obvious to me what cars were and what cars weren't. But at a minimum it was cars that had performance that was way beyond ordinary. So apply that to steel and it would be steel that has performance that is beyond ordinary. In terms of blade steel performance isn't defined either- could be toughness, could be edge holding, but generally some characteristic of performance that is important to users. So it is pointless to argue that one exotic steel will chip while another won't, some blade steels just can't be compared directly.

 

[Mikael W]

All 3 factors are important to the performance of a blade but the OP asked specifically about the steel and not the heat treat or blade geometry or anything else.

Somebody else said it was a bull**** marketing term and this is somewhat correct too. "super___" is a label given to something that is beyond common. I grew up reading about Ferrari and Lamborghini and other manufacturers of "supercars". I don't think the manufacturers labeled their cars as such but the media or the car enthusiasts sure did. They didn't define what makes a car super but it was pretty obvious to me what cars were and what cars weren't. But at a minimum it was cars that had performance that was way beyond ordinary. So apply that to steel and it would be steel that has performance that is beyond ordinary. In terms of blade steel performance isn't defined either- could be toughness, could be edge holding, but generally some characteristic of performance that is important to users. So it is pointless to argue that one exotic steel will chip while another won't, some blade steels just can't be compared directly.

Good Call BD!

I'm well aware of what the OP asked for.
I believe CPM 3V and SGPS to be 2 good supersteels, as I have good experiences with both.
This goes for CPS-HXP too.

Many discussions focus primarily on the supersteels, but often the more important factors like geometry and heat-treatment + sharpening skills takes the back seat.
The recent improvements in metallurgy for knives are great, not to say fantastic!
However it doesn't matter how good the steel is, if You neglect blade&edge geometry + heat-treat.

If You have a thin (0,04") kitchen knife in simple stainless steel, but with a good heat-treat and put on a fairly thick but well thought-out edge, You can cut hardwood with that thin simple steel.
A fancy powdersteel knife with an edge burnt already on the production line, will take a lot of sharpening before it becomes a good knife.
So my point is that before discussing the steel choices, there are other more important Q's to clarify.

When we as knifeusers, can sharpen our knives and set the edges for the intended use, questions like the one OP has becomes more important.


Regards
Mikael

 

[Lycosa]

Are not tool steels, the best overall steels for knives? Tool steels are used to cut other steels, no?