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Ya, that's a great point Cliff. Push cutting is by far the most efficient way through a rope, provided the rope is thin enough to be push-cut through. On thin ropes, my Calypso Jr. is the champion cutter.
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What can serrations do that plain edge can't?
- Thread starter David Williams
- Start date
Which is better, you ask? For defensive use, a slashing cut from a serrated blade inflicts far more devastating (and difficult to treat) wounds to flesh than does a common blade. Take for example a bayonet. For those in the field this is to be considered.
Serrated blades seem to do much better on hard crust bread than plain blades, they seem to keep a useable edge longer than a plain edge, but the typical serrations ground on one side of the blade can result in poor control on thicker objects that need to be sliced. When the Cutco people came by last time of the kitchen knives that we used to cut the smaller rope the plain edge 3in Henckel paring knife did the best job, evidently due to the thin blade. I didn't need to break out the Dozier, which also slices well due to the superb factory edge that cuts like some sort of micro-saw.
I also prefer a serrated breadknife for cutting rolls of fiberglass insulation. But, in general I don't prefer serrations on my general purpose knives.
I also prefer a serrated breadknife for cutting rolls of fiberglass insulation. But, in general I don't prefer serrations on my general purpose knives.
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Points well taken. I have only two knives with serrations and never used the serrated portions yet. I guess I don't cut enough boxes and ropes
I believe the Buck Odyssey II will come out in plain edge w/ATS-34
But what about the CS VG? Did that knife ever have a plain edge option?
Has anybody ever thought a plain edge rescue type knife might work? Is there a definitive test between serrated and plain edge on seat belts?
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"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
I believe the Buck Odyssey II will come out in plain edge w/ATS-34
Has anybody ever thought a plain edge rescue type knife might work? Is there a definitive test between serrated and plain edge on seat belts?
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"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
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Johnny --
It's not quite so simple as that. If you're talking about slicing (say, rope), the coarse edge can cut a rope in 2 cuts that might take a polished edge 10-15. Don't laugh, I'm not exaggerating, the performance difference can easily be that much. The polished edge will take so many more cuts that it will stop being effective sooner, for this particular application, in my experience.
Cliff Stamp just posted something very similar to this in one of the other forums, so he must be seeing the same thing.
The other thing about the coarse edge is that it cuts more effectively even when it's more sloppily done. A couple freehand swipes on a coarse stone, and it gets 80% of its performance back. With a polished edge, it seems like it needs to be done more accurately and carefully to get it back to its potential push-cutting performance.
It's not quite so simple as that. If you're talking about slicing (say, rope), the coarse edge can cut a rope in 2 cuts that might take a polished edge 10-15. Don't laugh, I'm not exaggerating, the performance difference can easily be that much. The polished edge will take so many more cuts that it will stop being effective sooner, for this particular application, in my experience.
Cliff Stamp just posted something very similar to this in one of the other forums, so he must be seeing the same thing.
The other thing about the coarse edge is that it cuts more effectively even when it's more sloppily done. A couple freehand swipes on a coarse stone, and it gets 80% of its performance back. With a polished edge, it seems like it needs to be done more accurately and carefully to get it back to its potential push-cutting performance.
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Nothing!
In my crazed opinion, the only advantage that serrations offer is that on soft materials that compress as you push on them like woven materials and bread, the serrations cut better by cutting at different angels as you saw back an forth with the knife. You are not actually cutting better, you are just flattening less. Also, serrations are universally cut at a lower angle than the usual plain edge, making them sharper. Sharpen your whole edge like that and you have a sharp knife that is easy to sharpen. Thirdy, they make the edge SEEM to last longer by keeping the dips away from hard materials that dull knife edges, like plates.
It is my firm opinion that a plain edge coarsely sharpened at a fine angle will cut just as well as serrations on virtually anything provided the steel will support a thin edge without breaking down.
Harv
In my crazed opinion, the only advantage that serrations offer is that on soft materials that compress as you push on them like woven materials and bread, the serrations cut better by cutting at different angels as you saw back an forth with the knife. You are not actually cutting better, you are just flattening less. Also, serrations are universally cut at a lower angle than the usual plain edge, making them sharper. Sharpen your whole edge like that and you have a sharp knife that is easy to sharpen. Thirdy, they make the edge SEEM to last longer by keeping the dips away from hard materials that dull knife edges, like plates.
It is my firm opinion that a plain edge coarsely sharpened at a fine angle will cut just as well as serrations on virtually anything provided the steel will support a thin edge without breaking down.
Harv
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Back in my professional box cutting days I never used a serrated edge. When I started from my bench I used a fixed blade packing knife--thin, smooth and razor sharp. At my bench I had an oil stone to keep the knife that way. It would slip through cardboard like butter. Serrated knifes require sawing motions, a razor edge just zips through in a continous stroke.
On my belt I had a holster with one of those utility knives that takes a trapezoidal utility/razor blade. In my back pocket I kept a razor blade holding box cutter. In my other pocket I had an SAK with two razor sharp blades. A serrated knife would have been a joke.
PS. Regarding "push" cutting and smooth edges. Virtually all cutting involves a little bit of transverse "drawing" action (with the exception of shaving, chiseling, and planing). Smooth edges work best with this stroke. They do not "stink" when used this way. If you've ever whittled a stick you know that your primary stroke also slides across the direction of your cut. It can be dangerous to attempt a "push" cut without exceptional control of your tool and your work piece. For example if you push cut through a tomato with a very sharp knife it will first compress elastically then part suddenly with a big reduction of resistance to the blade. The knife wants to jump through the material suddenly which is hazardous. If you stroke across the tomato slightly while cutting you pass through smoothly with 1/10-th the force.
When cutting rope with a smooth edge it parts easiest if the knife is drawn at least a little bit across the fiber. The only time I don't use a drawing cut on rope is if I'm working on a cutting board. This allows me to apply a lot of force with a lot of control. The same applies to meat cutting as well. If I'm carving a roast or boning I'm using a draw cut. If I'm dicing I use a push cut on a cutting board. I sure wouldn't hold the meat and try a push cut. And to return to topic--I don't need serrations for any food preperation except cutting bread.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 20 August 1999).]
On my belt I had a holster with one of those utility knives that takes a trapezoidal utility/razor blade. In my back pocket I kept a razor blade holding box cutter. In my other pocket I had an SAK with two razor sharp blades. A serrated knife would have been a joke.
PS. Regarding "push" cutting and smooth edges. Virtually all cutting involves a little bit of transverse "drawing" action (with the exception of shaving, chiseling, and planing). Smooth edges work best with this stroke. They do not "stink" when used this way. If you've ever whittled a stick you know that your primary stroke also slides across the direction of your cut. It can be dangerous to attempt a "push" cut without exceptional control of your tool and your work piece. For example if you push cut through a tomato with a very sharp knife it will first compress elastically then part suddenly with a big reduction of resistance to the blade. The knife wants to jump through the material suddenly which is hazardous. If you stroke across the tomato slightly while cutting you pass through smoothly with 1/10-th the force.
When cutting rope with a smooth edge it parts easiest if the knife is drawn at least a little bit across the fiber. The only time I don't use a drawing cut on rope is if I'm working on a cutting board. This allows me to apply a lot of force with a lot of control. The same applies to meat cutting as well. If I'm carving a roast or boning I'm using a draw cut. If I'm dicing I use a push cut on a cutting board. I sure wouldn't hold the meat and try a push cut. And to return to topic--I don't need serrations for any food preperation except cutting bread.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 20 August 1999).]
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Jeff --
Agree on cardboard -- thin and razor polished is the way to go. For almost the exact same reason thin and razor polished works well on rope that's thin enough to push-cut. Push-cutting (with usually involves *some* transverse motion, as you point out) works well when the thing-to-be-cut cooperates, and polished edges are the way to go for push-cutting.
I agree with your statement that smooth (I assume you mean polished) edges don't "stink" when used for push-cutting with some transverse motion, and agree that much pushcutting does involve such motion. Same way slicing motions involve some push-cutting type pressure. But your use of quotation marks around "stink" implies you're quoting someone, and that's most likely me. I'll point out that I never said that if there were any transverse motion at all, polished edges wouldn't work. But when the emphasis on cutting moves more to transverse motion than it does to push-cutting -- that is, when most people start considering the motion a "slice" -- a polished edge gets demolished so badly in performance by a coarse edge that it can indeed be said to stink. You can see it easily enough yourself with, say, 1.5" hard poly rope. The coarse edge will beat the polished edge by a factor of 5-10 easily, with the polished edge spending much of its time merely skittering across the top.
Joe
Agree on cardboard -- thin and razor polished is the way to go. For almost the exact same reason thin and razor polished works well on rope that's thin enough to push-cut. Push-cutting (with usually involves *some* transverse motion, as you point out) works well when the thing-to-be-cut cooperates, and polished edges are the way to go for push-cutting.
I agree with your statement that smooth (I assume you mean polished) edges don't "stink" when used for push-cutting with some transverse motion, and agree that much pushcutting does involve such motion. Same way slicing motions involve some push-cutting type pressure. But your use of quotation marks around "stink" implies you're quoting someone, and that's most likely me. I'll point out that I never said that if there were any transverse motion at all, polished edges wouldn't work. But when the emphasis on cutting moves more to transverse motion than it does to push-cutting -- that is, when most people start considering the motion a "slice" -- a polished edge gets demolished so badly in performance by a coarse edge that it can indeed be said to stink. You can see it easily enough yourself with, say, 1.5" hard poly rope. The coarse edge will beat the polished edge by a factor of 5-10 easily, with the polished edge spending much of its time merely skittering across the top.
Joe
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Steve --
Here's the example that convinced me serrations do have a legitimate cutting advantage that can't be explained away by the small edge angle. I got a piece of *really* hard plastic -- in my case, the plastic handle of an ice scraper -- and tried cutting it with both a very thin & coarse plain edge, and a spyderco serrated blade. Serrated blade won out no problem. When the material is *really* hard, the serrations make progress faster.
Joe
Here's the example that convinced me serrations do have a legitimate cutting advantage that can't be explained away by the small edge angle. I got a piece of *really* hard plastic -- in my case, the plastic handle of an ice scraper -- and tried cutting it with both a very thin & coarse plain edge, and a spyderco serrated blade. Serrated blade won out no problem. When the material is *really* hard, the serrations make progress faster.
Joe
Intimidation factor.
If you had 2 identical knives, 1 with plain edge, and 1 with serrations, and asked someone which one looks "nastier", my money says 95% of the time they pick the serrated edge.
This should make my 100th post. Cool!
I'll have to check to see if I am now a Senior Member.
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick"...TR
If you had 2 identical knives, 1 with plain edge, and 1 with serrations, and asked someone which one looks "nastier", my money says 95% of the time they pick the serrated edge.
This should make my 100th post. Cool!
I'll have to check to see if I am now a Senior Member.
------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick"...TR
Gollnick
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What can serrations do that plain edges can't? Nothing, really. But, what can serrations do faster and better than plain edges? A lot of things. Plain edges slice. Serrations rip. Some materials don't slice well. Fiberous materials are the best example. Stuff like cardboard, rope, heavy cloth, like canvas or webbing or seatbelt material, or a heavy tarp, and, of course, muscle tissue. Notice that steak knives are usually serrated. A steak is a piece of animal muscle. A bread knife is usually serrated because bread is very fiberous.
Human tissues are fiberous just like animal tissue. But, serrations don't stab as nicely as plain edges. So, on a fighting knive, the leading 1/3 to 1/2 of the edge is often plain and the rest serrated. If you stab someone, the plain part penetrates and makes an opening, then the serrated part rips and makes a very nasty wound. As you withdraw the knife, the serrations again do their nasty work.
On the other hand, if you want a very nice, clean slice, then you have to have a plain edge. This is why you shave with a plain edge. No ripping there, please, oh please.
So, both plain and serrated edges have their place and a combo edge is a compromise giving you a bit of both.
Chuck
Human tissues are fiberous just like animal tissue. But, serrations don't stab as nicely as plain edges. So, on a fighting knive, the leading 1/3 to 1/2 of the edge is often plain and the rest serrated. If you stab someone, the plain part penetrates and makes an opening, then the serrated part rips and makes a very nasty wound. As you withdraw the knife, the serrations again do their nasty work.
On the other hand, if you want a very nice, clean slice, then you have to have a plain edge. This is why you shave with a plain edge. No ripping there, please, oh please.
So, both plain and serrated edges have their place and a combo edge is a compromise giving you a bit of both.
Chuck
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Combo edges outsell plain edges by a hair in tactical knives. In other kinds of knives, the plain edge is king. I'm not sure what the appeal is on tac's but I assume that the combo edge owners feel a small, out of the way, section of serrations at the back of the blade can be useful for sawing type cuts.
Since it's at the back of the blade, I assume the serrated section isn't used much.
In the kitchen, bread knives are serrated. Sawing type cut. Serrations are helpful for this kind of thing. Plain edges are better for everything else.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
Since it's at the back of the blade, I assume the serrated section isn't used much.
In the kitchen, bread knives are serrated. Sawing type cut. Serrations are helpful for this kind of thing. Plain edges are better for everything else.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com
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Gollnick --
Actually, plain edges can outperform serrated edges on a number of the materials you mentioned. On cardboard, depending on its thickness and stiffness, a thin razor-polished plain edge beats a serrated edge (as Jeff Clark found also). On thin rope, again a thin razor-polished plain edge wins. On thicker or harder rope, my champion rope cutter is a thin coarse-ground plain edge Axis (the recurve helps), and in testing head to head with a serrated endura the Axis wins.
Restaurants use serrated steak knives because the serrated points protect the rest of the edge from blunting on the ceramic plate, keeping the knife cutting longer. And they don't want to undergo the expensive of resharpening plain edge knives over and over. It really has nothing to do with the raw performance of serrations through meat. The professions who butchered the meat and the cooks who cut it up and cooked it probably used plain edge knives exclusively.
The serrated edge does have two good advantages here. It keeps its performance up longer. More importantly, you get the serrated knife's performance "for free". With a plain edge knife, you need to have the skill to figure out what kind of edge is best for what you're going to cut, and then the skill to properly apply that edge with the stone/steel/strop. Once you develop that skill, you'll find that plain edges will outperform serrated in most of the areas you mentioned -- I know, I spent a long time in my garage testing different edges, resharpening, then testing again!
Bread knives are serrated not necessarily due to bread being just fibrous, but because it's difficult to break through the hard crust (if the crust is hard), especially without crushing the soft inner dough. The other challenge with bread -- as with tomatoes -- is that you want to cut it without compressing it at all. Which brings us to one definite advantage of serrated edges: on really hard materials, they do better than plain edges. Very hard plastic is another area where serrated edges work better.
Joe
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 21 August 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 21 August 1999).]
Actually, plain edges can outperform serrated edges on a number of the materials you mentioned. On cardboard, depending on its thickness and stiffness, a thin razor-polished plain edge beats a serrated edge (as Jeff Clark found also). On thin rope, again a thin razor-polished plain edge wins. On thicker or harder rope, my champion rope cutter is a thin coarse-ground plain edge Axis (the recurve helps), and in testing head to head with a serrated endura the Axis wins.
Restaurants use serrated steak knives because the serrated points protect the rest of the edge from blunting on the ceramic plate, keeping the knife cutting longer. And they don't want to undergo the expensive of resharpening plain edge knives over and over. It really has nothing to do with the raw performance of serrations through meat. The professions who butchered the meat and the cooks who cut it up and cooked it probably used plain edge knives exclusively.
The serrated edge does have two good advantages here. It keeps its performance up longer. More importantly, you get the serrated knife's performance "for free". With a plain edge knife, you need to have the skill to figure out what kind of edge is best for what you're going to cut, and then the skill to properly apply that edge with the stone/steel/strop. Once you develop that skill, you'll find that plain edges will outperform serrated in most of the areas you mentioned -- I know, I spent a long time in my garage testing different edges, resharpening, then testing again!
Bread knives are serrated not necessarily due to bread being just fibrous, but because it's difficult to break through the hard crust (if the crust is hard), especially without crushing the soft inner dough. The other challenge with bread -- as with tomatoes -- is that you want to cut it without compressing it at all. Which brings us to one definite advantage of serrated edges: on really hard materials, they do better than plain edges. Very hard plastic is another area where serrated edges work better.
Joe
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 21 August 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 21 August 1999).]
Sal Glesser
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Interesting thread. Lots of good points facts (& opinion). To say that they are the same is unrealistic. They are obviously not.
As Joe pointed out (thanx Joe) serrations do different things differently.
Let me share with you some of the thinking that led Spyderco to introduce and promote serrated edges on carry knives. (Research began in late '70's, first Spyderfco serrated knife introduced in '82). I believe that I can safely say that the current availability of serrated edges are the result of these early efforts.
In using and testing knives, we learned that the coarse edge (which is really a sort of "micro serration" if sharpened properly) would out cut the highly polished "razor" edge on most materials. We believe this was due to the "bite" provided by the coarser edge. We also learned that the polished edge was more reluctant to give up molecules of steel and hence retained the edge longer. Just as rust has a harder time getting a "grip" on a polished edge, the material being cut has a harder time "grabbing" and "dulling" the edge.
The synthesis seemed to be a highly polished serrated edge. This provided the coarse "bite" and the polished "longevity".
We maintained, and still do, very thin angles on our serrations with very sharp edges.
BTW "looks" were never considered, only performance.
Serrations that are made right stay sharper longer than equivalent plain edges. We use two different standards when edge testing. The standard for the serrated knife test is double that of the plain edge.
I also maintain that not all serrations are equal. That is like saying all cars are equal. I maintain that Spyderco serrations right out of the box will outperform most if not all of the competitive serrated models. And the ones that are close, are following our lead.
I also maintain, that with the exception of carving (whittling), scraping, chopping and shaving, that a sharp Spyderco serrated knife will do anything that a sharp plain edge knife will do. For those things, a serrated edge is next to useless.
Serrated edges work better when cutting on hard surface such as a cutting board because the tips of the teeth protect the recessed cutting surface.
A serrated Ladybug II (actually a keychain knife) with a blade less than 2" will zip a seat belt or a free hanging 1/2" hemp rope. Try that with you 2" SAK keychain knife.
Just some more opinion. Sorry for the commercial plug...just don't like my Ferrari being thrown in with the others and judged accordingly.
sal
As Joe pointed out (thanx Joe) serrations do different things differently.
Let me share with you some of the thinking that led Spyderco to introduce and promote serrated edges on carry knives. (Research began in late '70's, first Spyderfco serrated knife introduced in '82). I believe that I can safely say that the current availability of serrated edges are the result of these early efforts.
In using and testing knives, we learned that the coarse edge (which is really a sort of "micro serration" if sharpened properly) would out cut the highly polished "razor" edge on most materials. We believe this was due to the "bite" provided by the coarser edge. We also learned that the polished edge was more reluctant to give up molecules of steel and hence retained the edge longer. Just as rust has a harder time getting a "grip" on a polished edge, the material being cut has a harder time "grabbing" and "dulling" the edge.
The synthesis seemed to be a highly polished serrated edge. This provided the coarse "bite" and the polished "longevity".
We maintained, and still do, very thin angles on our serrations with very sharp edges.
BTW "looks" were never considered, only performance.
Serrations that are made right stay sharper longer than equivalent plain edges. We use two different standards when edge testing. The standard for the serrated knife test is double that of the plain edge.
I also maintain that not all serrations are equal. That is like saying all cars are equal. I maintain that Spyderco serrations right out of the box will outperform most if not all of the competitive serrated models. And the ones that are close, are following our lead.
I also maintain, that with the exception of carving (whittling), scraping, chopping and shaving, that a sharp Spyderco serrated knife will do anything that a sharp plain edge knife will do. For those things, a serrated edge is next to useless.
Serrated edges work better when cutting on hard surface such as a cutting board because the tips of the teeth protect the recessed cutting surface.
A serrated Ladybug II (actually a keychain knife) with a blade less than 2" will zip a seat belt or a free hanging 1/2" hemp rope. Try that with you 2" SAK keychain knife.
Just some more opinion. Sorry for the commercial plug...just don't like my Ferrari being thrown in with the others and judged accordingly.
sal
Cliff Stamp
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What kind of bread are you people eating? I have never wanted serrations to cut bread, even the bread I occasionally make which can if necessary be used for shelter building.
Sal :
[vs coarse]
Coarse edges slice much better than polished edges. I have seen improvements just under an order of magnitude (10x) and Joe has commented that he has seen similar very large differences as well.
While if you do a similar number of slices, a polished edge will outlast a coarse one. If you try to cut through a similar amount of material the coarse edge will keep cutting long after the polished edge is reduced to friction burning.
-Cliff
Sal :
[vs coarse]
Coarse edges slice much better than polished edges. I have seen improvements just under an order of magnitude (10x) and Joe has commented that he has seen similar very large differences as well.
While if you do a similar number of slices, a polished edge will outlast a coarse one. If you try to cut through a similar amount of material the coarse edge will keep cutting long after the polished edge is reduced to friction burning.
-Cliff
on type of bread ..... the hard crust/soft center bread like sourdough and such. Usually one justs breaks them by hand but sometimes people want slices.
What do you mean by polished edges doing better on number of slices vs coarser edges doing better on amount of material ? Polished edges are initially better ?
What do you mean by polished edges doing better on number of slices vs coarser edges doing better on amount of material ? Polished edges are initially better ?
Cliff Stamp
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John :
Polished edges will wear down slower than coarse edges given the same amount of stress. However coarse edges slice so much better than polished edges on a lot of materials which results in them feeling much less stress than a polished edge for a given amount of work. These are two factors that are competing against each other, but the coarse edge factor is relatively huge and wins out easily.
-Cliff
Polished edges will wear down slower than coarse edges given the same amount of stress. However coarse edges slice so much better than polished edges on a lot of materials which results in them feeling much less stress than a polished edge for a given amount of work. These are two factors that are competing against each other, but the coarse edge factor is relatively huge and wins out easily.
-Cliff
Looking at some different types of industrial knives serrations aren't common and often great pains are taken to produce knives with low surface roughness. I guess the big difference is that as much force as is needed can be applied while with a hand held knife there is a need to use low levels of force. When presented with the task of cutting thru something like a 12in log it's easier to use low levels of force with a saw than trying to slice with a knife, and I guess it's the same when comparing a coarse edge with a polished edge on common materials. Slicing a hanging rope seems to be a common trick these days but one of the more impressive that I've read of was cleanly slicing thru a sheet of newspaper rolled into a tube, something that Hartsfield (?) did with what what I think was blade of A2. I think that he sharpens his blades with coarse grit on a belt sander.