What carbon steel has equal or better edge retention than zdp?

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swiftproposal

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Well, I read all stuff people say about carbon steel and 1095 is carbon steel right?
I am very disappointed with it. Not only it rusted over night that I had to use sandpaper to remove rust, but it does not keep the edge that long.


It really does not compare to the zdp I have on my spyderco in edge retention.

What carbon steel has equal or better edge retention than zdp?
 
Oiling the blade prevents the rust problem with 1095. Edge retention is also influenced by edge geometry. Is the geapometry of the blades comparable? Another factor you may consider is how easy it is to resharpen the 1095 in comparison to the zdp. If you must go to a different steel you will need toi try some of the crucible steels osed for industrial cutting tools. As in lathe bits and cutoff tools. These steels however are more brittle. You may try 01 tool steel, it has increased carbon yet not as much of a problem with brittleness as M6 etc.
 
Edge retention is more a matter of rolling versus wear. Hardness will have a great affect on perceived edge retention, especially in 1095 or 0-1. If you have a 1095 blade hardened to 62-63 Rc it will hold an edge quite well. Depending on geometry it may be more susceptable to chipping, but that also depends on what you are using it for.
 
For the kind of hair shaving edge I use, finish and hardness are the most important features. Finer finishes last longer for me, although this is dependent on the type of material being cut. Corrosion resistance comes in handy when cutting acidic foods, such as onions, oranges, etc. Even a steak will turn 1095 and O1 colors. Try or make some 1095 at HRc 65-66, or try some M2 at 64-65. I hear O1 at 63-64 is good too, but havent tried that. I should finish my M2 puukko style blade this weekend, so I'll report on that. A2 can be pushed to the 63-64 range, but I dont know anyone who's tried it. I have next to no experience with it, having only used a Benchmade AFCK, but D2 has a good reputation. 1080 will reach 65-66 as well, and is a little easier to harden than 1095, if you're using simple methods like a torch and bucket of oil. SLOWLY grind a knife from a Nicholson file and see how that works. Sharpening ease depends at least as much on geometry as steel and hardness. For edge holding and resharpening comparisons, the geometry should be the same.
 
Unfortunately, there are no tests which can tell this for sure.

My feelings - SR101 (Swamp Rat 52100) is pretty good to be close to ZDP189.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
i am considering buying a RAT RC-4 (1095 carbon steel) is this a (relatively) inferior steel? am i going to be equally disappointed? :confused:
 
Go on over to the RAT forum and see what people think of their RAT knives ;).
 
bradpierson26 said:
i am considering buying a RAT RC-4 (1095 carbon steel) is this a (relatively) inferior steel? am i going to be equally disappointed? :confused:
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Inferior for what? Ultimate edge holding? or general usability?

1095 is a good steel for outdoor knives. Holds an edge well, re-sharpens relatively easily.

It may not hold an edge as well as ZDP, but it still holds an edge well and is much easier to sharpen than ZDP with most sharpening systems.

No matter how wear resistant the steel, it still requires resharpening. If you are out camping for a spell, you are unlikely to have a set of diamond hones in your pack. Without diamond hones, ZDP takes a fair bit to resharpen. To me, it is better to have a knife that re-sharpens with minimal work yet holds an edge fairly long, than one that is a cast iron B to resharpen even if it does holds an edge a bit longer.

For serious outdoors work, I doubt you will be disappointed with 1095.
 
From what I have read cpm10v will hold an edge like no other. The only problem is that it is extremely difficult to work with. Also I only know of one knifemaker who will use it and that is Phil Wilson. My understanding is that it has a the same makeup as s90v except has less chromium so its able to acheive a higher hardness increasing wear resistance and edge holding. The tradeoff is that this steel will stain fairly easily.

Steel Info
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm10vt.html

Phil Wilson's site with an article about cpm10v
http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/article4.htm
 
Go for some CPM 15V, that stuff is probably the most wear resistant steel in existence. I do believe that Phil Wilson has used some before.

I'd only use 15V in a smaller knife though, 10V is a little tougher (according to the charts) so anything over 4" I'd probably have done with that.
 
swiftproposal said:
Well, I read all stuff people say about carbon steel and 1095 is carbon steel right?
I am very disappointed with it. Not only it rusted over night that I had to use sandpaper to remove rust, but it does not keep the edge that long.


It really does not compare to the zdp I have on my spyderco in edge retention.

What carbon steel has equal or better edge retention than zdp?
Click to expand...

It's not just about the steel - blade shape and thickness, heat treatment (mis-treatment?), edge profile are all variables that will help to make or break (pun intended) a knife - regardless of which steel is used.

Yes, 1095 will rust if you don't use protective oil or wax - that's why it isn't called a stain-less steel. Most SS steels also have carbon in them, but they are alloyed with other metals that inhibit rust. They will develop some surface rust if not looked after - just not as quickly as a C-steel - i.e. they stain-less.

Acidic foods (fruits etc) can pick up a metallic taste from carbon steel - I prefer to use a ceramic blade on fruit I don't intend to eat straightaway as I find they don't brown as quickly

But there are other advantages in a good carbon-steel blade, which is why many people still prefer them for specific applications.
 
swiftproposal said:
Well, I read all stuff people say about carbon steel and 1095 is carbon steel right?
I am very disappointed with it. Not only it rusted over night that I had to use sandpaper to remove rust, but it does not keep the edge that long.
Click to expand...

What carbon steel knife are you referencing?
 
Edgeholding is very dependent on usage, geometry, and environment. In an environment where corrosion is a large factor, there will never be a carbon steel that comes even close to ANY stainless steel. That should be pretty obvious. Oil will help with the storage of the blade, but if you use it frequently the usage will wipe off the oil and protection is strongly reduced. I doubt that there is a lobster fisherman who would want a carbon steel blade.

If you cut highly abrasive stuff (cardboard as one example) most plain carbon steels (which SR 101 or CPM 10V really isn't), will have trouble measuring up as they do not contain a large carbide fraction. They are simply not very abrasion resistant. On the other hand precisely those steels, can excel at edgeholding for applications where abrasion is less of a factor (as Ed Schempp put it once: cutting mostly natural materials), but were lateral load on the edge is high, like carving. Because the plain carbon steels will support a finer edge geometry. So you can thin a carbon steel edge out before reaching the usable limit of edge stability.

This thread is another sad example of the confusion and misinformation that the "Landes edge model" has contributed to. This is not the first time that I see a post of someone new to the forums, who thinks that ZDP-189 (or any other of the highly alloyed steels) either can not take a shaving edge or will not keep it. Just recently I read another thread on a different forum where the "Landes model" has been strongly promoted, where claims were made that D2 is useless in an outdoor knife....the knife in question had a blade of about 4" length!!!!! Comm'on, do these people think that Dozier sells his knives only to dumb idiots, who've never held a knife before???? The "Landes model" is a useful tool, but it is worse than useless, when the premises under which it is applicable aren't understood or known.

Sorry for the rant :o. I'll shut up now.
 
mnblade said:
What carbon steel knife are you referencing?
Click to expand...

It is a custom knife from a maker here on the forums. I will not say the name. However, Its thin stock. It will not keep an edge. I sharpen it to scary sharp but it will loose the edge very quickly.

I have experience with vg10, D2, and zdp. All stainless and all perform much better and keep the edge longer than my new carbon steel custom.
 
HoB,

Did everyone edit their posts so swiftly that they left no traces of their original writings for me to read? I don't see a single post here that your post could be rebutting. FWIW, SR-101 is a very simple alloy and may be classified as either L1 or L2 in the lettered designations for tool steels.

You just miss fighting with Dr. Stamp, don't you? ;)

If 1095 is being heat-treated below RC62, I wouldn't rave about its edge-retention either, but it'll still be less brittle than ZDP-189 and easier to regrind should the blade suffer damage (harder to apply that final edge, but easier to get ready...), so it makes a great choice for an outdoors knife.
 
As has already been pointed out, the heat treatment is a huge factor.
I have knives from Canadian mastersmith Wally Hayes in O1, 52100 and yes,
1095, that hold a great edge.
 
Don't forget A2 also makes fine knives. I can literally shave the edge of other knives (high quality) with my A2 bladed Allen Blade custom. Tried it. Very pleased with my Allen Blade knife.
 
thombrogan said:
HoB,

Did everyone edit their posts so swiftly that they left no traces of their original writings for me to read? I don't see a single post here that your post could be rebutting. FWIW, SR-101 is a very simple alloy and may be classified as either L1 or L2 in the lettered designations for tool steels.

You just miss fighting with Dr. Stamp, don't you? ;)
Click to expand...

Hi Thom,
I stand corrected on the SR-101. Yeah, I guess I flew off the handle. Sorry about that. No, there was no prior post, that I responded to. It is just that these posts seem to pop up more and more frequently , and I begin to wonder whether the "Landes model" really has contributed to promote understanding or whether it has helped to obscure the issue. Alone that someone feels compelled to compare (the edgeholding of) a steel with 3% Carbon and 30% Cr with a steel with 1% Carbon and virtually no Cr makes me wonder. Or where do you suppose this strange comparison might have originated if not in the whole discussion about carbide volume and size that has as the center the "Landes model"?

I think, for me the trigger was a thread on the German Messerforum (where Landes is quite active, so no connection with Cliff) a while back, were someone declared himself surprised at a ZDP-189 Caly that it got really sharp and held an edge very well. That person also said that he almost didn't buy the knife because according to the "Landes model" he didn't think that it could be a good blade steel. Of course the thread continued with statements that Spyderco factory edges are way to obtuse to be worthy of discussion... (no need to repeat the rest)...and I am sitting there reading this, wondering who is being helped by this discussion? Just as I am sitting here now, reading the post of the OP, wondering who has really benefitted from Cliff's crusade.
 
To me 1095 - cheap entry level carbon steel, while ZDP189 - best (so far) particle metallurgy stinless high carbon steel (3% carbon!). 1095 is no match to ZDP even on best Heat Treatment.

It does not mean that 1095 are not good for knives - it will do the job very well, but it is as I sad entry level steel. Also there is no big ZDP189 knives around. Best big knife to my knowledge - Samuray Bowier with SRS15 - high carbon, high tungsten, stainless particle metallurgy high speed steel.

G-Sakai-HSE-008.jpg


But for it you need to e-mail to G-Sakai sent them money International order etc... Which is 4-5 day turnout.

http://www.gsakai.co.jp/jp/english/shop/shop_g6.html

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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