What carbon steel has equal or better edge retention than zdp?

[Joshua J.]

I just read an article by Stamp about edge retention testing. If I've interpreted everything correctly, the Landes model simply says that edge geometry affects edge retention. I don't find much wrong with that, except if people go and base the performance of a steel type on how it was sharpened.

 

[thombrogan]

Hi HoB!

It happens. Also, as more people start 'getting into' knives and finding places Bladeforums, it's natural for them to want to know "which steel is the best." I think what has happened in this case was more of a case of hearing "carbon is always better than stainless no matter what" and the original guy realizing "hey, no it's not. At least not this time." That was my take on the situation.

As for Dr. Landes' model, if you feel that sharpening more than 10 degrees per side is a mortal sin, it has merit. Yes, one of my pals took his ZDP-189 Spyderco brand Jess Horn folder down to 7 degrees per side, but it doesn't hold up to any of the work my Aogami Super Takeda Hamono brand chef knife does at a similar angle of C-Dawg's or gunmike1's chef knives with their 4.5 and 4 degree per side bevels. Mine has a microbevel that's closer to 12-13 per side, so maybe that's why mine's so durable? I used to use it as a Deutschenkochemesser and that was a bad idea. In sharpening a friend's mystery powdersteel (I think it's SKD-11 or SRS-15), I couldn't form a clean edge until added a robust microbevel (though I got a mirror-polished burr until then) and my pal w/the waifer-thin Jess Horn experienced the same when trying to put a 7.5 degree (15 included) edge on his friend's SKD-11 (powdered D2) chef knife. The "edge" literally broke off in places as he was transporting the knife to a local coffeehouse.

At thicker, but equally keen edges, I will readily admit that steels such as ZDP-189, VG-10, D2, and SG-2 blow 1095 hardened to RC58 out of the water (and rock the boat on harder 1095), but that's something covered by Landes' work as well. Hardness, carbide formation, and steel crystal composition (how much plate or lath martensite, how much upper or lower bainite....) generally determines which sort of steel will work better in a given application (I say "generally" because Brent Beach has D2 planes which outperform A2 planes and I have robust-edged knives in 13C26 that hold their edge better than similarly-ground knives in 154CM, S30V, and VG-10).

As far as Cliff's Crusades, I'd say their net results here were more negative than positive, but I don't dismiss the positives I was able to get from them.

Joshua J,

I think use makes a huge difference on top of that as well. When chopping vegetables with a French-style technique (forward/downward sheercuts with a rearward/upward return - looking like a piston on a choochoo train), I destroy thinly-edged chef knives. When using a Japanese-style technique (pushing straight down with only a hint of forward or rearward movement to start and complete a cut), that same 10-12 degree per side edge lasts and lasts and lasts even though the food and cutting board are the same.

 

[mmmotorcycle]

To me 1095 - cheap entry level carbon steel, while ZDP189 - best (so far) particle metallurgy stinless high carbon steel (3% carbon!). 1095 is no match to ZDP even on best Heat Treatment.

It does not mean that 1095 are not good for knives - it will do the job very well, but it is as I sad entry level steel. Also there is no big ZDP189 knives around. Best big knife to my knowledge - Samuray Bowier with SRS15 - high carbon, high tungsten, stainless particle metallurgy high speed steel.

But for it you need to e-mail to G-Sakai sent them money International order etc... Which is 4-5 day turnout.

http://www.gsakai.co.jp/jp/english/shop/shop_g6.html


Thanks, Vassili.

Yes, 1095 is inferior.

Try using ZDP-189 on a 8 or 9 inch fixed blade and get back to us all.

All steels have their purposes. I love 1095 for fixed blades and more stainless steels for folders.

 

[thombrogan]

Nozh2002 has used the SRS-15 in the 9" fixed blade in his photo, so I think his experience is close enough.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I have found that carbon steel can be harder to remove the burr on than stainless steel. If you are not used to carbon steel you could have a burr on it that you are not removing giving the poor performance.

Just a thought.

 

[vwb563]

I may be wrong but I would think D-2 would give ZDP-189 a run for its money. D-2 is considered a carbon steel. ,,,VWB.

 

[jim preston]

It is a custom knife from a maker here on the forums. I will not say the name. However, Its thin stock. It will not keep an edge. I sharpen it to scary sharp but it will loose the edge very quickly.

Are you sure you're not just grinding a burr.wire edge?
I find my carbon steel easier to sharpen than stainless, but I like both. Heck, my most favoritist knife at the moment is a Junkyard Dog in some Sandvik stainless.

 

[HoB]

I think use makes a huge difference on top of that as well. When chopping vegetables with a French-style technique (forward/downward sheercuts with a rearward/upward return - looking like a piston on a choochoo train), I destroy thinly-edged chef knives. When using a Japanese-style technique (pushing straight down with only a hint of forward or rearward movement to start and complete a cut), that same 10-12 degree per side edge lasts and lasts and lasts even though the food and cutting board are the same.

I noticed the same as well, and I think this is really at the heart of the issue. There is really no question that thinly ground knives cut better/more efficiently than thicker knives, but at what point do they become impractical? If an edge does not hold up to cutting up vegetables on a dedicated cutting board, I have decided for myself that the geometry is to fragile. I mean I am cutting veggies, not hardwood and I do so on a special end-grain board. If I still have to pay close attention to how I am cutting or have to change the way how I use a knife, I begin to questioning the practicality of it. I mean, it is not as if cutting veggies on a cutting board falls under the category of abuse in anyway. And if Landes' edge model becomes relevant only at geometries that are on the fringes of usability I wonder if it really warrants the publicity it gets.

I am not saying that these ultra-thin geometries don't have their place or that they aren't a pleasure to use, but I think that the number of people or applications that benefit from it is so small, that they can be considered a speciality modification and neither beneficial nor relevant for the average knife user.

In my limited experiments with these thin geometries I found (without having tried everything in between) that 7 deg per side doesn't hold an edge for me regardless of the steel. Which is, precisely as you say, the way I use my knifes. Even H-1 which should, in theory, be ideally suited for such a thin geometry (high hardness, high toughness, very fine grain structure) will chip way to easily for my liking, and shirogami and aogami get really fragile in my experience. So what do I care which steel can, in principle, support the finer edge? (That question is meant rethorically).

I don't have a problem with the idea and concept of the Landes' model or the discussion of it, after all this is what many of us are here for, but I am missing the conclusion that it is relevant only for purpose bred knives and has little relevance to the average Joe's EDC. It is like discussing cars without mentioning that Formular 1 cars are being discussed, while most of the listeners are thinking of a Toyota Camry. I mean, even the competition knives I have read about, don't go below 10 deg. per side (but, ok, those have to fulfill pretty demanding tasks, so they are not the best example).

As for Cliff: My problem with him has never been about knife edges at all, he has definitely influenced and stimulated the way I think about knife edges. My problem has been with his honesty (or lack thereof) in regards to his own background and a couple of minor topics that we touched on in private communications. That, in combination with him calling other people liars, who turned out to be far more honest than he himself, throws to me in question everything he ever wrote. But that's just me.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

CPM-3V and above will give a ZDP a run for its money.

 

[Joshua J.]

My first experience with shallow edge angels was sharpening CPM S60V at about six degrees included (it was flat with the primary grind). The edge was so thin it was pretty much equivalent to using a tinfoil knife. It would bend over on hair, and not just a little burr that you'd need a magnifying glass to see.
Later I was really excited about ZDP-189 because of the crazy hardness, hoping it would do better. It didn't. While the edge didn't visibly dent on hair, it couldn't hold an edge either. Not until, like Thombrogan, I put a nice ten degree per side microbevel on it. Now it works great, and is absolutely my favorite edge type, but I agree that super thin edges are not practical for EDC (at least until we get some super duper whooper knives that are still durable in the Rc 70 range).

 

[nozh2002]

Yes, 1095 is inferior.

Try using ZDP-189 on a 8 or 9 inch fixed blade and get back to us all.

All steels have their purposes. I love 1095 for fixed blades and more stainless steels for folders.

Sorry I will not try - this blade does not exist.
And we are not talking about true love here, but edge retention - see name of this topic. And in edge retention 1095 is far far far avay from ZDP189. It is as well far from SR101 - 52100 heat treated by Swamp Rat etc etc etc...

It has it's purpose - being cheap entry level steel for inexpensive knives etc... And used for this reason like a century.

But, it can not stay against more expensive modern steels. And for big knives nothing is better yet then SRS15 which only available on few G-Sakai models.

Disclaimer - I did not see yet CPM M4 it may outperform SRS15. How knows.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I should add that being cheap as dirt and reasonably good this steel allows manufacturer to have most profit without giving up too much quality especially with CRYO treatment.

 

[batosai117]

There is nothing wrong with 1095, it's all in the heat treat, thickness of the steel, and then the sharpening job done on it.

I sort of skimmed through this thread, but I did see that the knife in question was a custom off of a maker here. We're all human, maybe it was a heat treat problem that made it out of the shop and you ended up with it. It wouldn't hurt to contact him/her if you haven't already. Most of the makers here are great people to talk to and would be willing to fix the problem.

I just received a 1095 damascus blade in a trade here and it has done great. The stuff that I do with my knives might be different than what you do with yours. ZDP-189 is some good stuff, and probably not in the same "category" being compared to 1095.

 

[fujita yuji]

Steel is just a material and it must be judged from it's purpose and cost.
1095 survived almost million years because of it's superbe performance
compared to it's ease of production. Maybe nothing can beat it.
With pretty much confidence I can say 1095 remains in next century but
nobody will even remenber ZDP.

 

[Gunfucius]

It [1095] has it's purpose - being cheap entry level steel

What do you mean by "entry level"? If you mean that it is only for newbies, then you are mistaken. I'd hardly consider myself a newbie, but 1095 (and for that matter, 5160) is one of my top five favorite knife steels. Sure, there are new stainless steels that completely demolish it in terms of edge retention, and being stainless, they don't rust as easily, but in my opinion, 1095 is superior in all other ways when properly heat treated.

But, it [1095] can not stay against more expensive modern steels.

Why can't it? It's a great knife steel.

 

[nozh2002]

I just received a 1095 damascus blade in a trade here and it has done great. The stuff that I do with my knives might be different than what you do with yours. ZDP-189 is some good stuff, and probably not in the same "category" being compared to 1095.

Simple question - do you have first hand experience with ZDP189?

I use my Yuna on evrything - whittling hair, cutting of top layer of skin on my fingertips to take away splinters without drawing blood, cutting soft (redwood) and hardwood (wenge), cutting notebook 300 page to have it my size, cutting tree root in the ground, cutting drywall, cutting aluminum net and corners - everything. I am not sure what good stuff I did not cut with it.

It is easy to sharpen and holds edge way better then any carbon steel as well as it chips out also less then carbon steel (HT-ed japanese style, like Shirogamy) and edge never rolled out (HT-ed American way).

And in edge retention CPM S30V outperform 64HRC Finnish Carbon blade. See my testing:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509097

And I am going to test ZDP189 soon.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[batosai117]

Simple question - do you have first hand experience with ZDP189?

I use my Yuna on evrything - whittling hair, cutting of top layer of skin on my fingertips to take away splinters without drawing blood, cutting soft (redwood) and hardwood (wenge), cutting notebook 300 page to have it my size, cutting tree root in the ground, cutting drywall, cutting aluminum net and corners - everything. I am not sure what good stuff I did not cut with it.

It is easy to sharpen and holds edge way better then any carbon steel as well as it chips out also less then carbon steel (HT-ed japanese style, like Shirogamy) and edge never rolled out (HT-ed American way).

And in edge retention CPM S30V outperform 64HRC Finnish Carbon blade. See my testing:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509097

And I am going to test ZDP189 soon.

Thanks, Vassili.

Well, I don't have any first hand experience with ZDP-189, but I do understand the elements put into it. When I said that they weren't in the same category, I meant that ZDP-189 is meant to be a superior blade steel than the more traditional 1095, so of course it is going to appear to be a better steel than the 1095 mentioned in the OP.

I'm a big stainless lover myself, I just thought I'd toss in my .02 since I just got my first 1095 blade in a few days ago and I liked how it perormed.

 

[Sword and Shield]

I'd lay money on D2 or A2 at RC62 taking down ZDP189. It would be a bear to sharpen, but so's ZDP189.

 

[dePaul]

SRS15 which only available on few G-Sakai models.

And Fällkniven PP line of chef's knives .

~Paul~

 

[thombrogan]

I noticed the same as well, and I think this is really at the heart of the issue. There is really no question that thinly ground knives cut better/more efficiently than thicker knives, but at what point do they become impractical?

In my case, it wasn't the edge which was impractical; it was the technique. Even with the technique designed for thicker-edged knives, it still did the actual job better even with the flattened edge. Now, it does the same job faster and the edge doesn't dull anywhere near as quick.

And if Landes' edge model becomes relevant only at geometries that are on the fringes of usability I wonder if it really warrants the publicity it gets.

Actually, the edges we're mentioning (8-18 included degrees) are thinner than the edges Landes recommends as possible for AEB-L, O1 and the like and I'd be surprized if Aogami Super doesn't have a higher volume of carbides than those other steels. Further, since his model shows why edges behave why they do, the explanations are still valid so long as we're still talking about steel cutting edges.

I am not saying that these ultra-thin geometries don't have their place or that they aren't a pleasure to use, but I think that the number of people or applications that benefit from it is so small, that they can be considered a speciality modification and neither beneficial nor relevant for the average knife user.

I disagree you on this. Look at how many people here 'discover' Mora, puukko, leukko, and Opinel knives. Look at how many people have Bark River and never looked back. If a $10 Ericksen Mora or $8 Opinel folder are wowing the pants off people who've spent over $200 on a folding pocketknife designed for light use, that clearly shows the benefits and relevance of thinly ground knives with steels capable of holding thinly ground edges (one and the same in the case of the Scandi-ground knives). When my $14 12C27M Mora keeps its edge after cutting stuff in my yard which has micro-chipped the edge of my Spyderco Yojimbo (and they're both danged sharp), I think the relevance and benefits extend at least to people doing light yardwork.

In my limited experiments with these thin geometries I found (without having tried everything in between) that 7 deg per side doesn't hold an edge for me regardless of the steel. Which is, precisely as you say, the way I use my knifes. Even H-1 which should, in theory, be ideally suited for such a thin geometry (high hardness, high toughness, very fine grain structure) will chip way to easily for my liking, and shirogami and aogami get really fragile in my experience. So what do I care which steel can, in principle, support the finer edge? (That question is meant rethorically).

I don't know enough H1 or other precipitation-hardened steels to comment on that, but certainly agree that shirogami and aogami are fragile; especially when hardened to RC63-65; and wouldn't want to use them on anything but food (where they're Vikings!). Sounds like 7 degree edges (is that included or per side?) are beyond the limits of iron-based alloys at least for the uses yours saw.

I don't have a problem with the idea and concept of the Landes' model or the discussion of it, after all this is what many of us are here for, but I am missing the conclusion that it is relevant only for purpose bred knives and has little relevance to the average Joe's EDC. It is like discussing cars without mentioning that Formular 1 cars are being discussed, while most of the listeners are thinking of a Toyota Camry. I mean, even the competition knives I have read about, don't go below 10 deg. per side (but, ok, those have to fulfill pretty demanding tasks, so they are not the best example).

Even with thicker edges, Landes' model is valid. It lets the user understand why certain alloys, even with the same, thick edges, will cut differently and suffer of different types damages to different degrees of severity. Even without knowing of Landes' work at the time, Jerry Hossom has mentioned certain steels will fail at given tasks when compared to others with the same edge geometry and testing at the same HRC level because those steels lacked the carbides needed to resist deforming.

As for Cliff: My problem with him has never been about knife edges at all, he has definitely influenced and stimulated the way I think about knife edges. My problem has been with his honesty (or lack thereof) in regards to his own background and a couple of minor topics that we touched on in private communications. That, in combination with him calling other people liars, who turned out to be far more honest than he himself, throws to me in question everything he ever wrote. But that's just me.

There was that. It pained me that he repeatedly called Thomas Welk a liar and accused him of castigating 13C26 to the status of "beater steel" (i.e. AUS-6M, AUS-4, 420J2) especially when Welk wasn't lying and was doing all he could to make an affordable, high-quality product available to knife users even if they weren't obsessive nerdlings like myself. Welk even tried to make a production batch heat-treat for 13C26 to emulate what can be on a knife-per-knife basis under the inspiration and constant instigation from Stamp and I doubt our doctor even thanked him for trying. Awkward <- I feels it.

 

[nozh2002]

And Fällkniven PP line of chef's knives .

~Paul~

Quite a bit of Japanese kitchen knives has SRS15 as a core in their laminated blades including Fallkniven. I have one boning knife branded as Golden Deer. But here we are talking about utility knives like Rat etc...

Thanks, Vassili.