What clothing to take to Europe over Christmas?

maximus otter said:
Don't bother with down. If you can guarantee that the climate will be 100% dry, it's fine. The first drop of rain and down turns into sodden clumps.

Fleece and (modern) wool!

maximus otter
The modern synthetics like Primaloft and Polarguard are nearly as light and compressible as down. Unlike down, they don't clump when wet, and when wrung out, will restore much of their loft so they continue to insulate. Polarguard seems to be a bit better at restoring loft. For truly cold weather, these materials have a far better warmth-to-weight ratio than either wool or fleece for an insulating layer.

Sid Post said:
Anyway off the Goose Down rant and back to Primaloft. It seemed like the jackets I tested were nearly as compressible as down without being huge and puffy like down. It also insulates when wet so, I am leaning towards a Mountain Hardware Primaloft Jacket and Vest. Am I missing something with these jackets? They seem to stop the wind and shed rain really well so, I'm thinking a Mountain Hardware Primaloft Jacket would be the best outer layer. Then it would just be a choice between a wool vest or a Mountain Hardware Primaloft vest.
I had an off-brand Primaloft jacket that I wore for about 5 years. I recently replaced it with a Wild Things Hooded Primaloft Sweater that looks to be real nice. It was on sale, marked way down. It hasn't gotten cold enough yet for me to wear it, so I can't comment on that. I hope that it will be as warm as my old jacket. I like these garments for stuffing into my knapsack when out in the woods in the fall and winter. When I stop to look at something, or if the temperature drops, I can pull the jacket on over my other layers. Also good for emergencies.

I recently saw some sales on the Patagonia Micro Puff vest. They are highly regarded, although I don't own one personally.
 
They didn't have SmartWool underwear (not really surprised at this time of year in Arizona) but, they did have some "IceBreaker" brand underwear on display in addition to Patagonia. The IceBreaker stuff from New Zealand looked really nice and I preferred the feel in my hand to the Patagonia wool. They were actually a little cheaper and heavier then the Patagonia too.

Icebreaker is another leading brand for wool stuff. It'll serve you well.
 
Just remember that they have stores in Europe too. Bring your basic Fall spring US clothes and then add from there as you need it. I bought some souvenir jackets and pull overs When i went. I was from arctic Circle in Sweden to Skiing in the Alps to Monaco to Salerno. Had a blast, was of the mood that if i needed it we bought it. Kept the new stuff for gifts to family or ourselves.
 
+1 on Layers- easy on/off to match shifts in weather- especially if you're out walking/sightseeing all day.
+1 on wool/fleece beanie- not the thick/bulky kind- one you can tuck into a pocket easily.
+1+1+1 on earplugs- indispensible. Get the soft kind that won't feel like a pine cone in your ear if you need to sleep in them. You will need to sleep in them at least once.
+1 on leaving the NFL/NASCAR/MLB stuff at home unless you want the extra attention & the possible stinkeye/political challenges that may come with it. Face it- Yanks aren't exactly flavor of the month among many in Europe right now- not a political statement- simply an observation/statement of fact-please don't flame me.
Bring a decent pair of walking/hiking shoes. Europeans over age 18 generally don't wear sneakers & most european adults wear much more stylish shoes than the average american- even when walking regularly on cobblestones.
I could spot Yanks at 100 meters when I was living in Germany- they were all wearing Reeboks/Nikes, etc.- not generally well regarded when going into a decent restaurant. Some nightspots do not allow them.
Important- Try to learn at least some niceties in the language where you are. Please, Thank you, good morning/evening all go a long way.
-Pay attention to your change- Euro coins are worth more than they are in $USD. Use coins when/where possible to keep from accumulating a ton of them.
 
Layers + fleece + light rain/windbreaker jacket over fleece. Don't forget head and hand protection. Carry lip balm.

<rant on>
I travel to Europe on a regular basis, and I feel like I am going to puke reading this panicky, "oh my God, don't let anyone guess you're American" crap. I have never been harassed or hassled by anyone. I've even been treated nicely during my last trip to the Middle East. Just don't be an @sshole, be respectful, and relax. It's supposed to be your vacation time. If I was going to worry so much, I would go to Iowa instead.
<rant off>
 
Layers + fleece + light rain/windbreaker jacket over fleece. Don't forget head and hand protection. Carry lip balm.

<rant on>
I travel to Europe on a regular basis, and I feel like I am going to puke reading this panicky, "oh my God, don't let anyone guess you're American" crap. I have never been harassed or hassled by anyone. I've even been treated nicely during my last trip to the Middle East. Just don't be an @sshole, be respectful, and relax. It's supposed to be your vacation time. If I was going to worry so much, I would go to Iowa instead.
<rant off>

Not trying to ruffle any feathers- but in my 5 years of living in Germany I've seen it happen plenty. You are 100% spot on w/ the not being an @$$hole part however- behave decently & you'll receive the same in return. It largely depends on how one carries oneself.
 
<rant on>
I travel to Europe on a regular basis, and I feel like I am going to puke reading this panicky, "oh my God, don't let anyone guess you're American" crap. I have never been harassed or hassled by anyone. I've even been treated nicely during my last trip to the Middle East. Just don't be an @sshole, be respectful, and relax. It's supposed to be your vacation time. If I was going to worry so much, I would go to Iowa instead.
<rant off>

If you're an ARROGANT AMERICAN ASSHOLE, you should be harassed and treated poorly. I've seen plenty of college aged arrogant American assholes try to tell the locals a thing or two. Gee, I wonder why they think the Europeans hate them (or don't they realize it's people like me too ;)).

The vast majority of European's are nicer, kinder, politer, and more helpful then the average person I meet in the USA. However, there are plenty of very vocal and very adamant individuals in Europe who see me as their only chance to get back at America for the ills they see with our government and/or our way of life. I'm American so, I must support the agenda they oppose or so the theory goes apparently.

If you are a professional businessman and working in a business environment, you may never see this. But, when you mix with the average locals on the street, things change because you aren't sheltered by strict standards of conduct you see in offices.
 
If you're going up in the Alps, make sure to have good shoes. The pair of Lowa hiking shoes with good socks that you wright about should do the trick. Bring along another pair for city walking though. Hiking boots in the city is always looked upon as being a bit out of place.
Wooly tops are perfect. I have Smartwool and Icebreaker. Both are top notch stuff. You won't go wrong there whichever you choose. Long sleeve, short sleeve, layered - you've already figured that one out.
Insulated jacket - That's a matter of taste. I prefer a shell and a fleece. Others like an insulated jacket. Down would be wrong though. Outdoors jackets do look a bit out of place in the town, so maybe something for town visits may be a good idea.
For trousers - You can take bluejeans just about everywhere here without going wrong. That's a sure thing to bring. Another pair of "nicer" trousers is good to bring as well (your suggested ones are definitely ok). Your suggested shirt will go well will that, and will of course look nicer when visiting restaurants, museums and the like.
As already mentioned - It can be cold, and it can be cold and wet. Do not forget long-johns (for the mountains), a warm hat and good gloves. You will definitely need them all.
A SAK is good and ok everywhere (particularly here in Switzerland... :D ). The Wenger wouldn't raise any eybrows either. Larger, locking folders than that may be dodgy in town, but fairly ok on the countryside (at least in this country). That's based on experience, not sure about the actual laws.

Lat but not least.
There's plenty of shops here in Europe as well. You will find pretty much the same type of clothing here as you do at home. Maybe not always exactly the same brands (but often that too), but with the same idea behind it, function and style.
Maybe that would be the perfect souvenir to bring home??

/ Karl
 
The only time I have seen any anti american behaviors was right after DS2 started, there was a bit of it going on, and mainly seemed aimed at service personnel or the people walking around in flagrantly american outfits. The last trip in 04 there was none of that feeling. Be aware too that NY yankees and LA dodgers logos are all over there, sort of like the kids today who wear manchester united stuff here, so do not assume that everyone with a NYY hat on is a american.

I found the statement about shoes to be correct but i really had not made it click. I usually where high end boat shoes, or timberland shoes when I am not at home, and that is what i take, boat shoes and dockers and a blazer are perfectly acceptable in many spots. I often wear a hat from the Golf course or the harbor as a matter of habit, I noticed there it was not so permitted in places as it is here. They still take their hats off indoors.

Funniest thing I saw over there in many years was a guy from Wyoming. Actually talked to him for a bit, he was a rancher who was there representing a packing firm and was dressed in straight Cheyenne high society special. Western cut suit, western shirt, bolo tie, big Stetson or Resistol hat, and a Very fancy pair of snake skin Bluchers on. People stared at him like he was from another planet. His boots probably cost as much as most cars over there, and he was oblivious to it. Talking to him, he was a rancher himself and a part of the board of the packing company, He had 110,000 acres of beef production, and some more under cultivation.
I remember the look on someone from holland when he said how much land he had, I think they wanted to say BS but had to believe him. they had no idea that anyone could own nearly 550 SQ KM
 
If you are a professional businessman and working in a business environment, you may never see this. But, when you mix with the average locals on the street, things change because you aren't sheltered by strict standards of conduct you see in offices.
I travel on business, but I do mix. Of the past 50 years, I spent just over 20 in Europe. No, I still have not been harassed myself, and come to think of it, I don't think I have even seen it.

The vast majority of European's are nicer, kinder, politer, and more helpful then the average person I meet in the USA.
Oh boy, talk about going waaay over the top. Where do you live in the US? In a ghetto? My experience has been quite different. People are more or less the same everywhere, with a slight advantage on politeness going to the US. There are plenty of rude, obnoxious, and stupid Europeans. Thankfully, just like here, you don't have to hang out with them. I have very good friends on both sides of the Atlantic.

Having just read that sweeping generalization you made, I will seriously question the extent of your bi-hemispheric experience.
 
Oh boy, talk about going waaay over the top. Where do you live in the US? In a ghetto? My experience has been quite different. People are more or less the same everywhere, with a slight advantage on politeness going to the US. There are plenty of rude, obnoxious, and stupid Europeans. Thankfully, just like here, you don't have to hang out with them. I have very good friends on both sides of the Atlantic.

Having just read that sweeping generalization you made, I will seriously question the extent of your bi-hemispheric experience.

That goes both ways. While I can't speak to your experiences specifically, I can to mine.

My father was an International airline pilot for over 2 decades so, my experiences started at a young age. I have done work exchange programs overseas so, I'm not your average Eurail pass college student. I have also worked professionally in Europe. My personal experience spans 20 years, though it's been a few since I was last over there.

Thankfully, I have never lived in a Ghetto but, I did live in a barn for while ;)

Sweeping generalizations, well without context I guess that's one valid point of view but, not what I intended. I have lived in big cities and little towns from rural Oklahoma to big city Atlanta and similar megalopolis's. In some small town's I lived in, people were friendly and welcoming and in others all they did was watch me as the stranger in town and act like I was going to steal one of their women folk or kids. Then there were others that just wanted to tell me how to live my life and weren't too bad but, I got tired of the busy body's personally. In the bigger cities, I guess it all depends on where you live and your station in society. Perhaps you lived a different lifestyle then I?

If you don't see the arrogant American's in your extensive travels in Europe, then you obviously travel and interact with the locals differently then I do. I have watched a brain dead girl cuss at a custom's officer who asked to check her bag. She couldn't keep her mouth shut and caused a really big scene. Instead of rifling through her bag, this agent and several others emptied her bags out. If she had been polite, she wouldn't have needed to pick up her panties and bra off the floor and she wouldn't have had her makeup case spilled across 3 tables.

You haven't been accosted on the street when someone figured out you were an American. Good for you. The oddest one I had was when some folks from a country I won't name decided it was my personal fault a nuclear powered US Navy ship entered "their" territorial waters. I was there to eat, they were there to argue with me apparently. Thankfully experiences like that are few and far between in Europe.

In the USA, have you ever been aggressively "pan handled"? Have you had homeless people spit on your windshield at a stop light? How about general vandalism? Car break-ins? How about insurance fraud schemes? I had them all and some others.

So far, I have not personally feared for my safety once in any European country. I can't say the same for the USA in various cities.

As far as friendliness, well again that's my experience with the people I interact with. Outside of work, if I meet a woman on the street in Europe, I universally get a friendly response. In the USA, my experiences are more varied and all of them aren't what I would term friendly.

So pardon me please if I make a sweeping generalization based on my experiences when I walk through customs without any fuss and watch the American who thinks they own the world tell some custom's officer in a foreign country how it is and then complains when they really scrutinize their bags and paperwork. Please forgive me when I experience crime in the USA and don't in Europe.

As for my experiences in "professional" Europe, they are different then what I see when I travel in Europe. On business, it's big cities and 5 star hotels. On my own time, I want to eat where the locals do and drink the beer they do. I go to their local fairs and festivals. When I come back, people at work will likely be surprised that I didn't go to some museum or castle and instead did something in a park with locals. I have had many great experiences going to a local market in the city center and eating lunch there from various vendors offerings. Experiences like those are what I miss about Europe.

[/rant off]
 
Funniest thing I saw over there in many years was a guy from Wyoming. Actually talked to him for a bit, he was a rancher who was there representing a packing firm and was dressed in straight Cheyenne high society special. Western cut suit, western shirt, bolo tie, big Stetson or Resistol hat, and a Very fancy pair of snake skin Bluchers on. People stared at him like he was from another planet. His boots probably cost as much as most cars over there, and he was oblivious to it. Talking to him, he was a rancher himself and a part of the board of the packing company, He had 110,000 acres of beef production, and some more under cultivation.
I remember the look on someone from holland when he said how much land he had, I think they wanted to say BS but had to believe him. they had no idea that anyone could own nearly 550 SQ KM

That provides a very vivid image for me.

While not as dramatic, one of my trips to Europe occured when I was living in Texas back when Dallas was in reruns in Europe. When the locals found out I was from Texas, they always had questions like how many oil wells did I own? :)

That always seemed to start a nice conversation that was a give and take of what was such and such like in Texas and then how it was in their little part of the world.

The age of buildings was always interesting because they seemed to be either older then the USA or, about 50 years old (WW II). Things like commute distances are something a lot of Europeans don't understand. I've lived as far away as 42 miles one way for a daily commute. That is hard to believe for some Europeans that ride the local rail every day. The size of houses and most issues dealing with land are vastly different as well.
 
Thanks again for all the constructive feedback. I need to put some more thought into the shoes. I may just wait and buy a pair of dress shoes over there when and if I need them. Some Dockers or dress slacks will get some use whether I go to a nice restaurant or not. Dress shoes aren't nearly as versatile so, I only want to lug those around Europe if I really need to.

Right now, I'm trying to decide on a jacket versus a shell and I have gone back and forth on that issue a few times. I did find a Primaloft jacket that can pass for a dressier jacket if it needs to because it has a pseudo-leather look to it. With a good shirt and tie, some Dockers or dress slacks, and a new pair of shoes I should be able to go to a pretty nice place without too much hassle.

For long johns or leggings, I'm looking at getting some IceBreaker gear because it seems to be heavier and adding and removing layers on my legs is probably the most inconvenient when I am out and about. Shirts, sweaters, etc. are easy to change so a mix of lightweight and heavyweight stuff is easier to manage when I go into and out of heated buildings.

THANKS AGAIN for all the great helpful comments. I don't think I would ever be the Snakeskin boot and Bolo tie wearin' guy from Oklahoma but, I still have a lot to learn to travel low profile and blend in. That seems to give me a lot of opportunities to have non-traditional tourist experiences.
 
How old are you, Sid Post? To some degree that will affect your choice of attire. I'm 37 and during the last 13 years, have spent 8 living in Europe (during the other 5, I traveled there a good bit too). A few things I think are, if not "essential," then certainly a good idea to bring:

* Black jeans (can work in nicer places and easy to care for and comfortable).

* One pair of khakis (Dockers will work. Very versatile - can get you into the symphony or a biker bar)

* A good pair synthetic long johns (Even traveling in the dead of winter, a pair of khakis over good long johns is warm enough).

* Leather shoes (ditto to everyone who wrote about Europeans not normally wearing sneakers. Boots plus a pair of dress shoes covers most bases. Remember the impregnation against water.)

* Leather jacket (Warm and it makes me look good. Damn good. Shoot it with some impregnation to ward off rain).

* Sport coat (good for warmth when it's not TOO cold, and can make even a jerk in black jeans look respectable enough to go to a fine restaurant, LOL)

* A good wool sweater (outstanding option for layering under the leather jacket if need be).

* Swiss Army Knife.

* A money holder that loops around your belt, like this.

* Keychain type LED flashlight.

Lastly, try to remember you're going to Europe, a very civilized place, not some jungle. If you run out of something or forget something, you can buy it there. My pet peeve is seeing American tourists who clearly spent WAY too much money seemingly to get ready for a jungle safari (to get an idea what I'm talking about, look at the dorks pictured in any Tilley Endurables catalog. I love my Tilley hat, but Lord the folks in their catalogs look like they just fell off the rube wagon).
 
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