What comes first? Annealing or Heat treating.
- Thread starter H-1Hawk
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2010
- Messages
- 3,911
Annealing softens the metal so it can be worked (grinding, shaping, cutting, etc). Heat treatment hardens the metal so it retains the edge. Specific type of oil varies based on the type of steel.
You will undoubtedly get a reply advising you to fill out your profile. You will undoubtedly get a reply advising you to read the stickies at the top of the list of topics, as all your questions are answered there, and many, many more you have yet to even think of.
You will undoubtedly get a reply advising you to fill out your profile. You will undoubtedly get a reply advising you to read the stickies at the top of the list of topics, as all your questions are answered there, and many, many more you have yet to even think of.
Oil depends on the type of steel. Some oils cool the metal slow and some are fast. Many makers will use expensive oils designed to quench and some use anything/everything else such as peanut oil, canola oil, and transmission fluid.
Good luck with your search
Good luck with your search
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2003
- Messages
- 15,288
Heat treatment includes various heating and cooling processes to change the characteristics of the metal. Annealing, hardening , cryo ,tempering etc are all part of HT.
To properly HT a steel the first thing is to know what type of steel it is . This in turn lets you know what temperatures and times you need .
Yes read the stickies over and over till you understand the terms and processes !
To properly HT a steel the first thing is to know what type of steel it is . This in turn lets you know what temperatures and times you need .
Yes read the stickies over and over till you understand the terms and processes !
H-1Hawk
This is my third year of making knives and the alchemy of metallurgy has been and continues to be the most difficult concept for me to get my head wrapped around. I read a lot of conflicting information about what was a good steel for a beginner to use and different heat treatment (hardening) processes. The various phase change diagrams for the different steels still don't mean anything to me though I really do try to understand them. The more complicated the steel is in terms of alloying elements the more complicated the heat treatment process.
But your question was about the definition of a couple of words.
Anneal - The process of making your steel too soft for much of anything, but easier to work with tools. Generally speaking it is accomplished by bringing the steel up to a certain temperature (thousands of degrees red hot) for the particular steel and slowly cooling it.
Heat Treatment - The process of making your steel too hard and brittle to do anything with for fear that it will crack. In very general terms it is accomplished by heating the steel to a certain temperature (thousands of degrees, red hot) then rapidly cooling it.
Tempering - The process of ruining the heat treatment process, hopefully just enough so that it will still hold an edge and is not brittle yet soft enough to be able to sharpen. It's sort of like mid way between fully annealed and fully hardened. Again, in GENERAL terms, it is accomplished by heating the heat treated (hard and brittle) steel to a certain temperature (usually in the hundreds rather than thousands of degrees) and letting it soak in that heat. Some "magic" happens in the steel and it softens. The higher the tempering temperature, the softer the steel becomes.
The question of which oil to use as a quench seems like a simple enough one, but just like the questions of "which steel should I use?", the answer is, "it depends..." Different steels will use different oils, and a particular steel could use different oils to for different purposes and applications. I doubt that very few, if ANY, industrial heat treatment processors use vegetable oil but a lot of amateur knife makers (like me) use it. It's not that I think it's the best quenching medium, rather it's because I don't know which professional oil is better nor how to get only the two quarts to a gallon that I could use. Rather than not make knives I use vegetable oil.
- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
This is my third year of making knives and the alchemy of metallurgy has been and continues to be the most difficult concept for me to get my head wrapped around. I read a lot of conflicting information about what was a good steel for a beginner to use and different heat treatment (hardening) processes. The various phase change diagrams for the different steels still don't mean anything to me though I really do try to understand them. The more complicated the steel is in terms of alloying elements the more complicated the heat treatment process.
But your question was about the definition of a couple of words.
Anneal - The process of making your steel too soft for much of anything, but easier to work with tools. Generally speaking it is accomplished by bringing the steel up to a certain temperature (thousands of degrees red hot) for the particular steel and slowly cooling it.
Heat Treatment - The process of making your steel too hard and brittle to do anything with for fear that it will crack. In very general terms it is accomplished by heating the steel to a certain temperature (thousands of degrees, red hot) then rapidly cooling it.
Tempering - The process of ruining the heat treatment process, hopefully just enough so that it will still hold an edge and is not brittle yet soft enough to be able to sharpen. It's sort of like mid way between fully annealed and fully hardened. Again, in GENERAL terms, it is accomplished by heating the heat treated (hard and brittle) steel to a certain temperature (usually in the hundreds rather than thousands of degrees) and letting it soak in that heat. Some "magic" happens in the steel and it softens. The higher the tempering temperature, the softer the steel becomes.
The question of which oil to use as a quench seems like a simple enough one, but just like the questions of "which steel should I use?", the answer is, "it depends..." Different steels will use different oils, and a particular steel could use different oils to for different purposes and applications. I doubt that very few, if ANY, industrial heat treatment processors use vegetable oil but a lot of amateur knife makers (like me) use it. It's not that I think it's the best quenching medium, rather it's because I don't know which professional oil is better nor how to get only the two quarts to a gallon that I could use. Rather than not make knives I use vegetable oil.
- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2009
- Messages
- 18,732
Everything above is right on.
Try this too
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4
Then have a look at this.
Have you seen this ?
The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v11
The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.
Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.
The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website
Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt
The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF
Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website
Books
A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285
BladeForums - E-books or Google books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203
I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.
Knife Design:
On the Google books thread, you can find
Lloyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.
Google books thread
Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.
Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel
Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF
Machine Shop Tools-Printable PDF
The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable PDF
The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)
The goop quench is total Bull, commercial quench oils are available, even grocery store canola oil works much better.
Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.
I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginners book.
The home built grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is now a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.
Videos
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4
Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.
The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”
The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)
You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
They are slow to get new titles and wait times are measured in months,
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking
Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.
Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish
Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.
If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.
You can find a list of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736
Aldo is highly rated.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Heat Treating
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.
This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf
http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)
Grinder / Tools
Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3
Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466024
DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf
NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html
EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
Safety Equipment
I have a sign in my shop area by the door, “Eyes, Ears, Fingers, Lungs” as a reminder to take off jewelry and put on my safety gear.
Respirators
The minimum I would consider are the 3M and North silicone half masks;
even better are the powered positive pressure fresh air systems.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309
Try this too
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4
Then have a look at this.
Have you seen this ?
The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v11
The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.
Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.
The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website
Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt
The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF
Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website
Books
A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285
BladeForums - E-books or Google books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203
I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.
Knife Design:
On the Google books thread, you can find
Lloyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.
Google books thread
Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.
Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel
Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF
Machine Shop Tools-Printable PDF
The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable PDF
The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)
The goop quench is total Bull, commercial quench oils are available, even grocery store canola oil works much better.
Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.
I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginners book.
The home built grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is now a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.
Videos
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4
Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.
The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”
The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)
You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
They are slow to get new titles and wait times are measured in months,
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking
Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.
Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish
Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.
If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.
You can find a list of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736
Aldo is highly rated.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Heat Treating
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.
This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf
http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)
Grinder / Tools
Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3
Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466024
DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf
NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html
EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
Safety Equipment
I have a sign in my shop area by the door, “Eyes, Ears, Fingers, Lungs” as a reminder to take off jewelry and put on my safety gear.
Respirators
The minimum I would consider are the 3M and North silicone half masks;
even better are the powered positive pressure fresh air systems.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
The terms are so old and self explanatory basic that I am rather surprised at the difficulty that keeps arising around this.
It’s like this (and with no $5 words
)…Heat treating: exactly what the words say- any treatment of the steel involving temperature as the main process affecting the steel. Annealing, normalizing, stress relieving, hardening and tempering are all heat treating.
Annealing: (a heat treatment) The use of heat to soften or erase the hardening effects of cold working or other heat treatments, its primary purpose is to prepare the metal (any metal, copper, steel, silver etc...) for subsequent cold working (hammering, drawing rolling, cutting, grinding, machining etc…
. Basically heat the metal up to a glowing temperature and cooling (fast for many non-ferrous*, slow for steel). This is done before the cold working you wish to do, like filing drilling or grinding, after hammering if forging is used. Hardening: (a heat treatment) For steel, the process of heating to an appropriate glowing temperature for the given alloy and rapidly cooling (often by quenching in a liquid) in order to harden the metal. The extreme hardness often results in brittleness that will require tempering.
Tempering: (a heat treatment) Too often quite incorrectly used interchangeably with the hardening process. It is the application of lower heats (below glowing) to relieve some of the stress and thus the brittleness of the hardening operation.
As for the oil I personally use, I reason that products called "quench oils" will probably do the trick. I have two when I have to use oils instead of the other mediums I prefer one Park Metallurgical/Heat Bath AAA is designed work specifically with steels that are designed for oil quenching, the other is Park Metallurgical/Heat Bath #50 designed to approach water in quench speed for simpler water hardening alloys without the risk of cracking or heavy distortion. This is all a moot point however since this specific company’s oils are out of the reach of anybody not seriously committed to obtaining them. There are many other companies, however, that offer similar products that are much more readily available. Good luck on sorting this one out, for some reason religion or politics are safer topics than many knife guys choice of quenchants.
*non-ferrous is really just a $2.50 word and easier to use than listing every non iron based metal