What do folks think of this potential mod to a Kill Devil Hawk?

I guess I will leave it to personal preference then Chiral.grolim as i'm not going to put that much effort into this as you have lol.

On the trailing mass take a Cold Steel Frontier hawk and swing it backwards. It sure feels more combat effective like this as opposed to blade first. I'm not sure if you are even serious on the other parts or not but if you don't think you can penetrate with the modded hawk above go get a piece of rerod and see if that will penetrate. Its blunt to the touch but it will do just fine with enough force driving it.
 
I guess I will leave it to personal preference then Chiral.grolim as i'm not going to put that much effort into this as you have lol.

On the trailing mass take a Cold Steel Frontier hawk and swing it backwards. It sure feels more combat effective like this as opposed to blade first. I'm not sure if you are even serious on the other parts or not but if you don't think you can penetrate with the modded hawk above go get a piece of rerod and see if that will penetrate. Its blunt to the touch but it will do just fine with enough force driving it.

Yeah, perhaps too much effort, but I try to combat poor arm-chair theorizing that ignores basic principles of physics, human anatomy, as well as human history.

I've owned and used a CS Frontier Hawk, gave it to a friend after purchasing a Trail Hawk for myself. NEITHER felt "more combat effective" when swung backwards, much less so in fact, and less balanced as well. Even with the hammer poll, the trail hawk feels unbalanced when swung this way. Indeed most tools and weapons of similar design demonstrate quite clearly the experience of millions of other users over millennia. Trailing-weight = poor performance, bad balance. Add onto that the fact that the blade (read "cutting tool") is a superior weapon, and you may want to revisit why you feel that swinging the hawk backwards "feels more combat effective"... :confused:

And yes, I was serious on every point I made. 3/16" is too thin to make an effective hammer and 3/16 x 1" is too broad to make an effective piercing tool, especially with an effective depth of a mere inch. As a hammer, I've tried it, it's ridiculous. As a piercing tool, it requires too much force to push it through thicker hard material because it must first impact & compress such a broad area as it is a blunt object, and again it can only go 1" deep - enough to crack a 1/4" skull, not enough to impale brain tissue. On softer tissues which can flex/stretch, it cannot even penetrate. You can crack a rib, but forget about piercing a lung - 1" and a 0.2 in^2 blunt tip won't do it. Bending the last inch of a 16" length of 1/2" rebar gives you a skull cracker, a window breaker, and that's all. Check historical references & archaeological digs for piercing weapons only an inch long and lacking a point. Again, good luck!



And again, I'm not trying to trash the mod, just create a clear understanding of what capabilities will remain.
 
I'll let this guy try and explain my point about mass.
[youtube]qSglls61vGY[/youtube]

As far as actually hurting people there are basically 3 ways of doing so. Blunt force, piercing, and burning. In combatives a hawk is going to cause major blunt force trauma over piercing do to design. I think a "skull cracker" would be a fight finisher over a stab which would take a bit to bleed out.
 
I'll let this guy try and explain my point about mass.

...

As far as actually hurting people there are basically 3 ways of doing so. Blunt force, piercing, and burning. In combatives a hawk is going to cause major blunt force trauma over piercing do to design. I think a "skull cracker" would be a fight finisher over a stab which would take a bit to bleed out.

Wow. Please tell me that's not whom you rely on for your information...

Again, research human history, human anatomy, and hand-to-hand combat techniques. Nearly EVERYTHING that this guy has suggested doesn't even work in THEORY much less in practice, which makes his own alleged experience dubious at best.

Regarding the trailing weight and momentum control (his only point on it), the momentum control is the advantage achieved by a better-balanced head. With a trailing center of mass, you lead the direction of travel and can change direction more easily because the mass's momentum buts up against your lead as it tries to continue in the same direction. This is just like towing a trailer vs. pushing it - when you accelerate, the mass behind you is towed, then impacts against you when you break; but when pushing, the mass will try to continue it's forward momentum even after you've ceased to supply power to its motion. What does this mean in impact scenarios? First, the leading mass requires less energy to deliver a blow than a trailing mass. Second, the leading mass impacts ahead of the point of control, so continued force may be applied to drive the impact further and harder as the user requires; the trailing mass impacts the point of control itself rather than the target, it's momentum is conserved - it cannot be driven further or harder into the target despite user efforts unless the point of control can precede it. Third, on impact, the user can lay off application of force to the leading mass driving into the target, so if the leading mass encounters an obstacle, the point of control isn't forced to rotate around it in an effort to continue dispensing kinetic energy; but if the point of control encounters an obstacle, the trailing mass is forced to rotate around it, creating imbalance.

Does the leading mass require more energy to change its direction of travel? Yes, but once changed, it requires less force to continue in that direction. Add on top of that the benefit of a cutting-edge leading that mass and it is no contest as to which is the more combat effective design. Human history and weapon-design support this (and not just in regard to tomahawks, btw), bearing witness to the physical realities.


There are a LOT more than 3 ways to induce tissue damage, but that is beside the point. You may notice with careful observation that there are slight differences between the design of a hammer and that of a hatchet or tomahawk. In case you miss the specific feature I am referring to, there is a cutting edge present on the axe/hatchet/hawk and only occasionally is there a specific design aspect for inducing blunt-force trauma, unlike what is seen on a hammer. Cutting demands material penetration, i.e. piercing. The wide blade of such cutting tools allows them to pierce a larger area with a single application of force, albeit requiring more force than would be needed to pierce a smaller area with a smaller blade (e.g. tip). Piercing the protective outer layer of a target allows the tool to make contact with and do more damage to the, commonly much more vital, internal parts of the target. When felling trees, one cannot simply remove the sapwood with blunt-force or abrasion and expect the tree to immediately perish or fall - one must penetrate to the heart where its structural integrity is maintained. This is why both axes and saws have cutting blades, are cutting tools.

Inversely to trees, the human skeleton that gives us structure is NOT vital and can be compromised any number of times in any number of locations without inducing fatality. But if you pierce our protective shell and compromise our vital internal organs, we can be slain almost instantly. A strike that cracks your skull is not even close to being as effective as a strike which cuts through your brain, your heart, or your lungs. Similarly, a bruised muscle and cracked bone (pain) is less debilitating than severed tissue and bone + blood-loss (disablement). Human physiology attests to this as does human history and weapon design over millennia, including projectiles and firearms. Furthermore, delivery of an effective "head-shot" is only simple in video-games. Once you leave virtual reality for the real world, you learn that center-of-mass (thorax) is the best choice for an effective target and quick kill, but blunt instruments perform very poorly in comparison to penetrating tools.

None of this information is difficult to acquire, none of it difficult for the mind to grasp.
Read, study, and learn to recognize when the information being dispensed by a random youtube video is fallacious, in this particular case, laughably so.

Good luck!
 
I'll let this guy try and explain my point about mass.
[youtube]qSglls61vGY[/youtube]

As far as actually hurting people there are basically 3 ways of doing so. Blunt force, piercing, and burning. In combatives a hawk is going to cause major blunt force trauma over piercing do to design. I think a "skull cracker" would be a fight finisher over a stab which would take a bit to bleed out.

Interesting video, but it’s clear he has never used it and has no experience with the new tactical axes and the actual modern day applications. There are better options out there as far fighting hatchet or hawk. I will take a piercing-stab over a blunt for strike. Blunt force trauma limits your targets on the body, especially when facing someone wearing some type of body armor. If for some reason your target shields himself with his arms, a blunt force strike will be less effective than a blade-spike strike on the arms.

I’m not going to duel with someone with a hawk; the purpose of it is to incapacitate an attacker the fastest way possible. Long handles on a hawk make more sense if you’re using it as a tool or breaching device in the modern world.
 
Taking the spike down wouldn't shave much weight, and that narrow of a "small flat strike area" would be LESS useful, imho, compared to the more extended "small flat strike area" that the spike already is - remember that the tomahawk is only 3/16" thick maximum. The Loggerhead has a thicker poll for hammering, like you'd find on a CS Trail hawk (OK, not quite like that). You could also instead try the Estwing modification and leave the hammer poll...

Thanks for sharing the Link, Im gonna do that!
 
I won’t claim to be an expert at neither physics nor fighting, but from what I do know I I'd say that the spike does make it more controllable. The general rule of fighting weapons like swords is that a blade that curves forward will give it more power and a blade that curves backwards will give it more speed. This is why kukris are great for heavy chopping while parangs for instance are used for lighter chopping tasks like chopping small branches and such. Generally I think both forward and backward weight distribution makes it less controllable than a straight design. In the case of an axe this works the same way. The forward weight distribution adds a lot of power to the chop, but makes it slower. Since axes are generally meant to be used for chopping down trees and other tasks, this is perfect. However, for a fighting axe, power isn’t everything. You also need to be able to easily maneuver it in the case that you miss your first strike. Adding a spike won’t change the weight to the backside, but it will help balance the weight, making it faster and more controllable, while sacrificing power.

One of the many advantages of an axe in a fight is the ability to hook the opponent’s limbs as well as his weapon. Obviously having that capability at both sides of the head can be very useful. As far as I know one of the traditional fighting tactics when using a tomahawk or any other one handed axe is to hook the opponent’s weapon hand and then striking him with a knife that you hold in your weak hand. Having the added length of the spike also makes it much more useful for pushing attacks where you essentially push the opponent’s limbs away as if you were stabbing them with a knife.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to argue against me if you disagree. I always appreciate input :)
 
To BillyJoeBobJim, again keep in mind that the KDSH is only 3/16" - not much thickness for effective hammering unless you use the flat as suggested or are only tapping the target. Perhaps inverting the hawk and hammering with a micarta-scaled shaft would be more effective, but it might chip the micarta.

Why did you even make this comment?

I have plenty of experience "hammering" with knives and tomahawks, and I know very well how to hammer something with this KDSH. Try it with your Winkler or RMJ. You'll see. Experience is key. Hammering with the shaft is less effective than what I stated.
 
Man, there's some good stuff in here...maybe a little intense though. I'll keep my post simple: if you want it as a combat hawk, keep the spike, as they are undeniably very useful. Train to avoid getting stuck with it either by accident or by your opponent. Just because something poses a risk doesn't mean that you should remove the risk, just be more thoughtful of the risk, as the risk may be to your advantage (double edged knife, bayonet, lightweight triggers, etc...)

That being said, if anybody does mod it for field use, please post pics and experiences...
 
I haven't done any modding on mine yet as I haven't been able to successfully wrap the handle in a manner which made me happy enough to heavily use/mod it. :apologetic:
I find myself reaching for the micarta handled version more often so far, but time will tell as I spend more time with the wrapped handle.
 
I haven't done any modding on mine yet as I haven't been able to successfully wrap the handle in a manner which made me happy enough to heavily use/mod it. :apologetic:
I find myself reaching for the micarta handled version more often so far, but time will tell as I spend more time with the wrapped handle.

Have you considered giving it a micarta-wrap handle yourself?
 
Kinda sorta resurrecting this thread...by now some of the spike-less Kill Devil Hawks from Knob Creek have made it out to folks. So, what does everyone think of them? I like mine! I didn't attend, but was able to get one off the exchange. It feels good...no real loss in how it handles, just a bit different. I'm looking forward to a chance to do some comparitive chopping.

I never got around to moding my original ganza hawk; I'm kind of glad that I waited. It was a pleasant surprise to see these in the original Knob Creek sneak peek picture.

So, what are folks' thoughts on it?
 
The Busse team thought enough of the spike-less version to make a run. For pure utility I can see the merit of removing the spike. I left mine spiked as I have my GB axe for pure utility.
 
Actually, I personally think the spike on the KDSH serves a very utilitarian purpose! It works EXCELLENT on stubborn wood. Sink that baby in with all your might, then give the handle a firm push to one side and spilt that log!!! :D
 
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