What do you do? Customer requests and design features.

B

BFrancios

Joined
Jul 9, 2012
Messages
65
I was asked to make an exact copy of my second knife for that friends brother. Note, this project will be knife number 7.
However I know more now and wanted to correct some of what I perceived as flaws in that design. I presented a tweaked design but was told, nope, exactly like my brothers. This was before I could explain why I made the changes. I did not push the point because I did not want my friend thinking his knife had any flaws (there are lots). He's quite proud of it and has been talking up the knife to his circle of friends, a lot of hunters. Should I push the point, or just do as requested. I am kind of torn since I want to correct those issues on my knives. Basically the changes I want were a smaller coil, lower dropped point, and a slightly reduced blade height/width. Nothing major but it would change the look and profile of the knife and hopefully improve the gutting, skinning and boning characteristics of the knife. The changes were due to things read on this forum confirmed by my use of the original design on kitchen butchering chores.

That said, these guys are hunters and I am not, they may know more about what they want in a hunting knife. I was told my knife field dressed 2 whitetails last season.

How do you handle making an improved knife without making owners of past projects question their knife purchase when those 2 groups know each other well? Likewise, do you accept putting design features in "your" knives that you don't really agree with?

Barry
 
I would make the customer what they wanted within reason. A little wider less of a drop point no big deal. If its something you can't live with maybe draw them up a few other ones and ask them to pick one. That way they feel they had something to do with the design.
 
If he said he wants it exactly like his brothers then i'd make it exactly like his brothers. He's obviously used his brothers or seen it in action at least and they didn't perceive any flaws in the design so to each their own. I see where you are coming from as well but it doesn't sound like these issues are flaws per say but just little quirks in the design that some would love and some would change. :) Just from the little we know I think he would be unhappy if you made it any other way than how his brothers is made.
 
Or make two knives.
A exact copy and the altered version.
That way he can see what you mean and choose the one he wants. Keep or sell the other one.
(the storie goes that that is what James Black did when Bowie ordered a knife)
 
This is a fundamental problem with taking custom orders. You can't take a custom order and make it your way. You have to envision exactly what the customer is asking for and make it his way. Its one knife. And its your 8th. Make it his way and cover some belt costs.
 
Under my namesake masthead, I make one off knives and state that when they are designed, agreed upon and delivered. There is a guarantee that they will not be duplicated, ever. This might not be the best long term business strategy but so far it has met with approval. I had a similar situation develop, however told the prospective customer that I would not do an exact copy, thus side-stepping the idea and leading directly to a unique design of his own that resulted in the best of what he wanted from the other knife and features he could claim as his own.
For ones that I intend to copy, they are copied to my liking and at my discretion under the Overmountain masthead. Like I said, this might not be the best business strategy as there may be a design somewhere along the way I make for someone that is a real hit, and I will be forced to stick to my guns with the one-off thing, but hopefully I can meet this with a similar model under the Overmountain name and meet the demand.
God willing there will ever be a day I have to worry about that...:) Right now I am blessed to keep the lights on in the shop with what I do make, and I guess to really have a business plan and that sort of thing may be overstepping my limited abilities and means.
For your situation I tend to agree with jk and say if he wants it exactly the same, ignore that you may have moved on from that design and assume there was something he really liked about that exact knife. And there is always a good chance you got something fundamentally right and didn't know it. He obviously used it and liked it enough to request a copy. I know when a knife or tool effects me that way it is a strong reaction and I want that EXACT knife or tool. Not one similar... You stated you aren't an avid hunter and the customer is. I tend to trust the user if they are more versed in an area than I.
FWIW there are few of us on here that have been known to chase the occasional tail of the wild variety... post up a pic and see what the consensus is. A little knife porn never hurt anybody... :D
 
You're the maker, make it the way you want. Personally, I don't do copies. I have one type of knife that a lot of people seem to like. One day I made a batch of 4 of them. Drew the outlines on bar stock, cut it out and rough ground them. I thought it would be cool to stack them up and see them perfectly matched. To my amazement, none of the 4 were exact, not even close! And by the time I finished them, the only thing they had in common with one another is the overall shape.

I tell people that want exact copies that I can't do it. I can get close, but I don't do exact copies. Every knife I do is a one of a kind original and I like it that way. I've also turned away people who've come to me with their own designs. Most are just impractical or have major design flaws. Hey, you're your own boss. You don't have to make everything someone brings you. Make it if you like it but don't let money be the biggest reason you make, or won't make, a knife! (actually, money should never be considered in the decision making process of whether to make a knife or not)
 
Don't forget you can choose to put your name on it or not. If it isn't something you recommend, or want to build, then decide if you want it shown off as your design. It could go either way in terms of people seeing you as cooperative, or as putting out knives that are not the best you can make, whether in design or execution.
 
Do you want to do it or not? Can you afford not to do it and turn down future business as well? If you can then, you can stop anywhere you want and say no. If you are just getting started and are trying to build a business, and need the money now, no is not the right answer. Frank
 
Thanks guys,

Truth is the knife will get made. I am not turning down a chance to have my next hobby project pay for itself. It won't be an exact copy, I am not that good. It will have better fit and finish and a potentially better heat treat(no canola). I doubt I could get the bolster shape and blade size to be exact anyway. It will be as close as I can make it.

That said it was an eccentric design I was hoping to get away from. Part of what the user wants is a knife with his own trophy handle. That I can give him, and one more knife like this with my name on it won't hurt a nonexistent reputation :). Just kinda tired of making this particular knife I guess, and I need to work on how I approach customers during the initial discussions.

RWT - No pics of the exact knife (yeah, I should photo each one..., and do now.) but it has an antler handle like #1 below with the blade profile of #2 below. The knife in question had red spacer material between the bolster and antler. I can send you a sketchup file with the profile if you'd like, just PM me and let me know what drawing format you prefer.


DSCF0049.JPG


DSCF0005.JPG


Thanks for all the comments, it'll be helpful when I encounter this situation in the future.

Barry
 
That is a very good and time proven design for a hunter. I can see why he likes it. Most of us like a knife that can gut, skin, and work the chest cavity as well. At least I do... Most of the time I go hunting I have two knives. A folder for little stuff and my hunter which does everything else. Looks like a nice design...
 
BFrancios said:
Likewise, do you accept putting design features in "your" knives that you don't really agree with?
Click to expand...

I do not add features to my knives that I don't agree with.

It's easier to not take the order than make something that you don't really care for.
 
Mitchell Knives said:
I do not add features to my knives that I don't agree with.

It's easier to not take the order than make something that you don't really care for.
Click to expand...

I figure the same. They came to me because they liked my style. If they want me to do something I don't like or don't specialize in, I will send them in the direction of someone who does...
Better to lose the $ than compromise your vision.
 
I'm all about learning something new.
I tend to watch what people like, sometimes they surprise me with their preferences- often there's a practical reason why a design I like isn't popular.
So, I treat each request like that as an opportunity to make a better product.
 
Mudbug007 said:
You're the maker, make it the way you want. Personally, I don't do copies. I have one type of knife that a lot of people seem to like. One day I made a batch of 4 of them. Drew the outlines on bar stock, cut it out and rough ground them. I thought it would be cool to stack them up and see them perfectly matched. To my amazement, none of the 4 were exact, not even close! And by the time I finished them, the only thing they had in common with one another is the overall shape.

I tell people that want exact copies that I can't do it. I can get close, but I don't do exact copies. Every knife I do is a one of a kind original and I like it that way. I've also turned away people who've come to me with their own designs. Most are just impractical or have major design flaws. Hey, you're your own boss. You don't have to make everything someone brings you. Make it if you like it but don't let money be the biggest reason you make, or won't make, a knife! (actually, money should never be considered in the decision making process of whether to make a knife or not)
Click to expand...

Hey Mud,
I respect your opinion, and there is nothing wrong with never making the same identical knife twice, but I just wanted to add an opinion from the other side of the fence for BFrancois. I make all of my knives in my shop, by hand and using machinery, but no CNC, no waterjet, etc. That can lend itself to some variation from blade to blade, but it's still possible for a one man, non computerized shop to produce knives that are nearly identical. When people order a specific model from me they can be sure that it will be a pretty damn close copy of the one that they saw that made them want that model in the first place.

It's all well and good to make unique knives, but for someone really trying to make even somewhat of a living doing this...when someone says I like your "Model X", can you make me one in CPM-3V with carbon fiber scales and red liners, you really need to be able to reproduce that blade.

Just my thoughts.
 
I guess the three main points are deciding if you are a business, and artist, or a designer. To make a knife to sell, you must be all three, but your circumstance decides the priority of each. I look at the makers I respect, and see a continuity in their designs. I haven't see a Wheeler bowie with a gut hook, loveless knives are quite identifiable, Fogg gentleman's knives have a certain esthetic, and on and on. They make what they make, and it works. Starting out, we are just happy to have orders and projects, or a little extra cash. Think a few years down the road. Where do you want to be?
 
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You have an end user that is very pleased with the design. As an end user, for his purposes, the knife is perfect. You've created something that somebody who is using it for what it was intended thinks is PERFECT. And now he wants another one. Make it. What you see as flaws, a person who is putting the knife through its paces does not.
 
Willie71 said:
I guess the three main points are deciding if you are a business, and artist, or a designer. To make a knife to see, you must be all three, but your circumstance decides the priority of each. I look at the makers I respect, and see a continuity in their designs. I haven't see a Wheeler bowie with a gut hook, loveless knives are quite identifiable, Fogg gentleman's knives have a certain esthetic, and on and on. They make what they make, and it works. Starting out, we are just happy to have orders and projects, or a little extra cash. Think a few years down the road. Where do you want to be?
Click to expand...

Great post, Willie:thumbup:
 
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