What do you learn from destruction tests?

allyourblood said:
I've not seen any of these "Noss" knife testing videos, but I'm assuming most of them consist of testing multiple, indentical knives? I mean, we're not talking about someone just using one knife and testing it to failure a single time, are we?? Heck, not even the smallest scientific tests are conducted with a single sample. How many units of the same knife does this guy break before arriving at his conclusions?
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I had the same thought last night, after I made my previous post. Very good point.
 
marthinus said:
This is so good.


ps. Batman and Superman for the win!
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Sorry could not resist;)
 
unit said:
Amen to that. I am directing all of my comments (except this one) at/to Chuck (singularity35) who I feel I know pretty well and would consider him a friend. We may not agree on everything but I would not say that I disagree with him on anything of any real importance.
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I am honored to be counted among your friends Ken. We should have more of these stimulating discussions because I enjoy so much your views. BTW, how is your Bladesports career going? Now that there is interesting stuff.
 
Mike-The-Knife said:
What I learned from knifetests.com is that for the price of owning 5 or 10 or more average fixed blade knives (as many do) I can own 2 or 3 knives that I can count on not to fail me under pretty much any conditions and have money left over .
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No -- Noss would have to have a decently sized test sample of every single knife he tests for us to get a reliable indicator of stress points. Testing just a single sample of each knife is not conclusive.
 
singularity35 said:
I am honored to be counted among your friends Ken. We should have more of these stimulating discussions because I enjoy so much your views. BTW, how is your Bladesports career going? Now that there is interesting stuff.
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Stalling at the moment...I have been sick for the past 3 weeks.

Otherwise things are going very well. I have yet to compete, but my training is always a blast!

Thanks for the kind words BTW. One thing about my views...they change a lot;)
 
unit said:
Stalling at the moment...I have been sick for the past 3 weeks.

Otherwise things are going very well. I have yet to compete, but my training is always a blast!
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I'm sorry to hear that. Get well soon and kick some 2X4 butt with that chopper. :D
 
Thanks guys, I thought it might help the mood;)

enough of the group hugging, lets get back to arguing minutia;)
 
Owning a single example is also inconclusive - recommending a "tough" knife suitable for survival/bushcraft/woodsbumming/wood processing/combat/etc. without going through several in structured and repeatable testing is no more valid than the outcome of beating a single one with a hammer. Neither method is an indicator of consistency and quality in manufacturing processes. And multiple recommendations carry little weight if the knives are not tested/used under the same conditions. Knife reviews, including those in print, are also generally done using only a single specimen. Not only is this an insufficient sample to actually judge the merits of the design and the production process, but they are generally filled with subjective assessments on ergonomics and sharpness without proper measurement or recording. Nutn, cutlerylover, virtuo, and most other youtube reviewers only obtain one example of any of the knives they review, again lacking a proper number to give a useful confidence interval.

Basically, don't listen to anyone.
 
The thing I like about them is watching what knives with hidden tangs can take.

The Scrapper 6 destruction test was very enlightening as I have traditionally been someone who would NEVER buy a knife with a hidden tang based upon an assumption that the design was weak.

Also, watching what the laminated steel on the Fallkniven blade could do was pretty cool.

-Stan
 
demoteamone said:
I don't know if you contradict yourself more or just speculate about it?
There is always someone who will contest your methodology and conclusions. After all there were scientists that said we could not go to the moon but we did.
Noss provides a valuable service for those of us who expect a lot from our tools. He is willing to push tools to the limit and beyond. The average user will find this little more than entertainment however, for others it helps us from buying tools that will not meet our expectations. Right Mr midnight flyer.....?
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It's sounds contradictory, but I wasn't trying to be. I read more of the posts on this thread and remember how many threads have popped up with people being horrified, indignant, pissed off and hurt when watching Noss. He offends people when playing out in his garage when tearing up knives, and they crap all over him because he is doesn't do tests they way THEY think he should. As Guardians of the Knife and all things Holy, even if he pays for it, they don't even think he even have a knife! Still they watch, still he presses on and draws their venom (based on their considered opinion)

But then it popped into my head, hmmmm....."why not Noss?" if I had private control of the test results. That thought came when I thought he was like one of my employee/helpers I have had over the years. I had a helper for years (never picked up a trade) that had an idea of how to use some tools. Almost without fail, he would wind up abusing them by using them incorrectly, or in a way they were never intended or designed to be used. He didn't do it maliciously, but he just couldn't pay attention to what he was doing sometimes, and didn't think about what he was doing.

(Example: "Robert, after the concrete drill got too hot to hold onto, so I wrapped a big piece of rag around it and kept drilling for another 15 minutes, and then it just stopped. I don't know what happened... it just stopped")

I coined the phrase "Paul tested tough" after a couple of years, and it was a joke on the crew. Like Noss, we had only conclusive data, nothing static developed in a sterile, controlled, engineered environment with redundant testing of multiple random samples with all results certified with a second test under a the aegis of a third party as is favored here.

We figured if Paul didn't break it, it had to be pretty sturdy, and pretty well built. It was simple, intuitive reasoning. Scientific? No.

To me, Noss is indeed an amusing clown. And yes, there is something to be learned there, although I am not sure his tests prove too much. I admit I am mildly interested to see how some knives fare, especially the favorites of the fan boys that swear to the manufacturer's claim of near indestructibility. (These seem to be the guys that are most easily butt hurt if their knife doesn't fare well.) However, I have seen MANY, MANY times folks that watch the more silly test videos of knife tests that crow about the results if a favorite of theirs does well.

Threads about incorrect testing come and go here, especially when talking about Noss, and like the "spine whack test" they threads they devolve into petty arguing about the correct way to test knives (based on personal opinion), the way to interpret data as seen by each person. Then it gets personal, then more feelings get hurt and people feel impugned. Fingers are pointed. Tongues are stuck out at monitors. Then it dies down.

Don't worry, though. A new Noss thread will start again soon and the debate between experts can all start over again.

Strange how Noss doesn't give a crap about all this noise, eh? Years of outrage and being crapped on, and he still keeps having fun.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
Strange how Noss doesn't give a crap about all this noise, eh? Years of outrage and being crapped on, and he still keeps having fun.

Robert
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Oh, I imagine he gives a thought to it. Any discussion of what he does raises awareness of it...that is advertising, and it will draw some viewers. I would imagine he enjoys the added traffic these threads bring.

I share you pseudo-awe for how people can get so torqued off about what some guy does in his shop with his toys though. OTOH, there will perhaps be claims that he and his methods could unjustly affect the reputations some maker's products (and while I will not play judge of his scruples or anyone else's, those claims could be hard to defend against without rigorous repeatable and defensible procedures...)

At the end of the day, it is content on the web that everyone should judge for them self.
 
allyourblood said:
I've not seen any of these "Noss" knife testing videos, but I'm assuming most of them consist of testing multiple, indentical knives? I mean, we're not talking about someone just using one knife and testing it to failure a single time, are we?? Heck, not even the smallest scientific tests are conducted with a single sample. How many units of the same knife does this guy break before arriving at his conclusions?
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Using your stringent criteria, there is nobody on BF who's advise one should listen to, since for one, very few people test knives to begin with, and I dunno who can here afford time/money to test multiple samples... I don't think it's a bad thing, but for an individual it's hardly an option. And one knife that broke very easily during batonning had the exact same failure on the second sample... It's hardly a science what Noss does, but then again, if one tests knives in strictly controlled lab conditions those results are hardly applicable to real world, since no man can match the machine...
 
I think the tests are interesting and I'm glad someone is doing them. I learned about the relative difference in toughness between certain steel types, which is useful if you're getting a hard-use knife. Obviously the tests aren't scientifically perfect, but they have some limited value in illustrating what these different steels are capable of. Do I use my knives that way? Never. But it's nice to know that, if I HAD to use my knife in some extreme situation to save my life or somebody else's, that certain knives or steel types are likely to be more capable of standing up to those kinds of extreme usage.

Beyond that, I see limited value in the tests. They are really useful for testing extreme use cases, which most of us will never face. They don't really tell you how well most knives will perform under ordinary usage conditions. Also, I think there are failures in the testing methodology, how he records the data, etc. But I don't want to nitpick here, hell the guy is doing it for free, it's not like he works for us. I think he's doing a service overall, I appreciate it, and it is interesting to see the results for the "extreme use" potential of a given knife. IMHO, that's what it's good for. I hope he keeps it up. I personally found it quite interesting that, for example, a very expensive knife by a well known maker in an high-end stainless, would not stand up to certain kinds of extreme toughness testing that other blades WOULD handle. You have to assume that nobody is going to be happy hearing that about their prized $300 blade, so of course they're going to attack the tests. But hey, I'm not into wishful thinking. If these fancy blades cannot take the hard use conditions, or at least if they cannot handle bending and abuse as well as some other steel types, I'd personally like to have that information if I'm buying a knife for survival use or a bug-out bag. If I'm buying a more common, everyday knife to fillet fish, or clear brush, or perform camp chores, then toughness doesn't matter so much.
 
Gator97 said:
Using your stringent criteria, there is nobody on BF who's advise one should listen to, since for one, very few people test knives to begin with, and I dunno who can here afford time/money to test multiple samples... I don't think it's a bad thing, but for an individual it's hardly an option. And one knife that broke very easily during batonning had the exact same failure on the second sample... It's hardly a science what Noss does, but then again, if one tests knives in strictly controlled lab conditions those results are hardly applicable to real world, since no man can match the machine...
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However, in that same vein, I would say no man will ever put the same pressure at the same angle that Noss happened to hammer his knife with so then that test isn't applicable either, at least in a controlled environment pressures and angles are measured.
 
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