What do you say when smiths make claims like this?????

I'm not so shallow that name calling does anything. If Hugo misunderstood my post, because his terminology was worded poorly, no skin off my back. As far as the google degree.......more can be learned with a simple google search than listening to others who have NO experience in metallurgy repeat bad info because ....... well ....... I really don't know why. There could be a book written about that subject alone.

Those of use who understand metallurgy and especially how it is applied to heat treating of knife steel understand exactly my comment. And it was an attempt, apparently a poor one at that, to help dispel some of the myths that seem to promulgate from.......others. Let's just put it that way.

There is A LOT of growing up that needs to be done by people on this forum.
 
Well I hope you learned something today and that is there is a difference between grain size and grain direction. Size can be reset by re-heating but direction is affected by manufacture method. Hopefully you wont promulgate this myth in the future.
 
I'm not the one promulgating myths. But I do understand exactly what you are trying to say. And at the end of it.....I agree. There is a BIG problem when talking about grain orientation and grain size as it relates to orientation.

Ill go even further......I'll flat out say that I WAS WRONG. I am right when it comes to re-crystallization, grain reset, Ac3 and above will do that. But wrong when it comes to the grain "direction" or "flow" and how that relates to fatigue.

When it comes to knives, however, this is of little concern. (grain flow.....like around the tip where a curve exists). Of course, we wouldn't want to cut out blank across the grain flow. You probably would be able to notice some problems there!
 
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And to further help educate anyone interested in the topic, from Kevin Cashen, who knows more about metallurgy than just about anyone on the planet.....

I have been asked by a couple of different folks to help with questions regarding the same topic. This is a tough one to fully grasp by most folks mostly because of misleading or confusing terminology. The topic is that of how forging effects the “grain” direction in steel.

I know how this one trips people up because we have already made the fatal error on the topic, and that is the loose use of the word “grain”. When metallurgy, or one with even a rudimentary knowledge of it, speaks of “grain” they are referring to a basic unit of common crystalline orientation in the steel. Most often this is in reference to an austenite grain since it is the prior austenite grain boundary that defines the shape and size of the units of other phases. This is an example of grains defined by prior austenite boundaries:

This is the “grainy” texture that we see on the ends of broken steel, and this is the unit that metallurgists mean when they mention “grain size.” Since this is based in austenite grain, it is very transitory, and is remade on every heat that exceeds the recrystallization temperature (non-magnetic, just to keep it simple). Because of this these grains are “isotropic” for the most part. What this means is that they have no directional properties in relation to the shape of the steel, you can deform the grains lengthwise in the direction of cold working but they will completely reset in a new isotropic state as soon as you reheat the steel, this is why annealing works.

Where we run into trouble is when we confuse these actual grains with the metaphorically applied term “grain direction” of the steel, as in “going with the grain” on a piece of wood. Entirely independent and separate from austenite grains is the fibrous direction of a bar of traditionally milled steel. This condition is the result of flaws and inconsistencies in the poured ingot being reduced and drawn out lengthwise in the direction of the rolling process. This is “anisotropic”, i.e. it is directional in nature and it is not transitory but a permanent property in the steel. You cannot change it by heat treating alone like you can with austenite grains. This is an example of the fibrous flow lines in steel forgings:

The only way to affect the orientation of crystalline (prior austenite) grains with a hammer is to work the snot out of it cold and then never reheat it. The orientation of the anisotropic fibrous nature of poured and rolled steel can, however, be affected by forging because it is not undone by mere heating. Think of it as super fine damascus defined by millions of weld zones. The actual grains can form, recrystallize and do their thing all around and within these lines as they are two different things.

“Aha! So directional properties of steel are improved by forging!” Well, hold on, not so fast. In the case of a complex part with abrupt changes in direction and cross section, such as a crank shaft, yes. But with a shape as flat and simple as a knife blade, not really. The only way to even notice this with a knife blade would be to shear off your stock from a large sheet with the anisotropic fibrosity going transverse to the blade length, i.e. from spine to edge instead of from tip to tang. Then you could measure its effects on impact and tensile strengths or perhaps edge stability. But with the direction running parallel to the blade length I would have a hard time thinking of how it could be measured even in a lab. Do the proponents of the forged tip versus the ground tip really envision the end splintering out like wood because the flow lines run off the edge from being ground? If so they haven’t bent much steel.

And as for the persistent idea of bladesmiths compressing all of these flow lines along the edge… well stop and really think about this. In the reduction from the ingot to the typical finished stock used by knifemakers the mill reduces this material from several feet down to ¼”, and then the bladesmith comes along and hammers a slight bevel down the side and wants to take credit for reduction??? Really?

As we have seen, these concepts are very easy to confuse due to the reckless use of terminology, but no matter how many times this is clarified the same old faces continue to muddy the water with the same misinformation. At what point do mistakes become willful ignorance? And how much willful ignorance does is take to equal dishonesty?

I just got my Christmas present to myself a moment ago- a library copy, in excellent condition, of “Recrystallization, Grain Growth and Textures” by ASM. It has plenty of good stuff regarding these issues. But I would also recommend:

“Plasticity of Metals” by Kurrein
“Forging and Related Technology” by The Institute of Mechanical Engineers
“Metal Forming” by Hosford and Caddell
“The Inhomogeneity of Plastic Deformation” by ASM
 
I was watching a Chinese Kung Fu movie on Netflix the other day and found out that if you forge the blade with iron from a meteorite it will have magical properties. I think you have to impale a slave with the blade for a proper quench. Not sure if it has to be a virgin though.
 
Mark, one of these days I am going to get the most beautiful walnut burl from you. You continue to have the most awesome looking wood for knife makers on the planet. But I must insist.....the magical properties of forging you are referring to only exist when the forging has been done on a Blood Moon with the tip oriented to Orion. The slave matters not if it is virgin or whore. Works equally well with both.
 
By the way, the impurity alloy inclusions, arranged in a flow at the mill has indeed a wood grain appearence, but they are strings-of-pearls at the microscope, so i doubt they will "splinter" like wood when subjected to loads. If we are talking about very raw, unclean steel (like wrought iron) i agree, but even then i would be happy to read about real comparison numbers of failure testing of crankshafts forged vs. milled.
The ultimate reason why the crankshafts are forged is because machining from stock is incomparably more costly in terms of wasted steel and tooling.
 
By the way, the impurity alloy inclusions, arranged in a flow at the mill has indeed a wood grain appearence, but they are strings-of-pearls at the microscope, so i doubt they will "splinter" like wood when subjected to loads. If we are talking about very raw, unclean steel (like wrought iron) i agree, but even then i would be happy to read about real comparison numbers of failure testing of crankshafts forged vs. milled.
The ultimate reason why the crankshafts are forged is because machining from stock is incomparably more costly in terms of wasted steel and tooling.

Ok we should probably stop talking about engine parts in this knife forum or we gonna get kicked out. Most parts are cast these days and machined to final dims some stuff is powder metal. I think you are right machining a crank out of round bar for production level runs would be too expensive.
 
And to further help educate anyone interested in the topic, from Kevin Cashen, who knows more about metallurgy than just about anyone on the planet.....

I have been asked by a couple of different folks to help with questions regarding the same topic. This is a tough one to fully grasp by most folks mostly because of misleading or confusing terminology. The topic is that of how forging effects the “grain” direction in steel.

I know how this one trips people up because we have already made the fatal error on the topic, and that is the loose use of the word “grain”. When metallurgy, or one with even a rudimentary knowledge of it, speaks of “grain” they are referring to a basic unit of common crystalline orientation in the steel. Most often this is in reference to an austenite grain since it is the prior austenite grain boundary that defines the shape and size of the units of other phases. This is an example of grains defined by prior austenite boundaries:

This is the “grainy” texture that we see on the ends of broken steel, and this is the unit that metallurgists mean when they mention “grain size.” Since this is based in austenite grain, it is very transitory, and is remade on every heat that exceeds the recrystallization temperature (non-magnetic, just to keep it simple). Because of this these grains are “isotropic” for the most part. What this means is that they have no directional properties in relation to the shape of the steel, you can deform the grains lengthwise in the direction of cold working but they will completely reset in a new isotropic state as soon as you reheat the steel, this is why annealing works.

Where we run into trouble is when we confuse these actual grains with the metaphorically applied term “grain direction” of the steel, as in “going with the grain” on a piece of wood. Entirely independent and separate from austenite grains is the fibrous direction of a bar of traditionally milled steel. This condition is the result of flaws and inconsistencies in the poured ingot being reduced and drawn out lengthwise in the direction of the rolling process. This is “anisotropic”, i.e. it is directional in nature and it is not transitory but a permanent property in the steel. You cannot change it by heat treating alone like you can with austenite grains. This is an example of the fibrous flow lines in steel forgings:

The only way to affect the orientation of crystalline (prior austenite) grains with a hammer is to work the snot out of it cold and then never reheat it. The orientation of the anisotropic fibrous nature of poured and rolled steel can, however, be affected by forging because it is not undone by mere heating. Think of it as super fine damascus defined by millions of weld zones. The actual grains can form, recrystallize and do their thing all around and within these lines as they are two different things.

“Aha! So directional properties of steel are improved by forging!” Well, hold on, not so fast. In the case of a complex part with abrupt changes in direction and cross section, such as a crank shaft, yes. But with a shape as flat and simple as a knife blade, not really. The only way to even notice this with a knife blade would be to shear off your stock from a large sheet with the anisotropic fibrosity going transverse to the blade length, i.e. from spine to edge instead of from tip to tang. Then you could measure its effects on impact and tensile strengths or perhaps edge stability. But with the direction running parallel to the blade length I would have a hard time thinking of how it could be measured even in a lab. Do the proponents of the forged tip versus the ground tip really envision the end splintering out like wood because the flow lines run off the edge from being ground? If so they haven’t bent much steel.

And as for the persistent idea of bladesmiths compressing all of these flow lines along the edge… well stop and really think about this. In the reduction from the ingot to the typical finished stock used by knifemakers the mill reduces this material from several feet down to ¼”, and then the bladesmith comes along and hammers a slight bevel down the side and wants to take credit for reduction??? Really?

As we have seen, these concepts are very easy to confuse due to the reckless use of terminology, but no matter how many times this is clarified the same old faces continue to muddy the water with the same misinformation. At what point do mistakes become willful ignorance? And how much willful ignorance does is take to equal dishonesty?

I just got my Christmas present to myself a moment ago- a library copy, in excellent condition, of “Recrystallization, Grain Growth and Textures” by ASM. It has plenty of good stuff regarding these issues. But I would also recommend:

“Plasticity of Metals” by Kurrein
“Forging and Related Technology” by The Institute of Mechanical Engineers
“Metal Forming” by Hosford and Caddell
“The Inhomogeneity of Plastic Deformation” by ASM
Thank you for the time and energy you put into this string of discussion sir. And double thank you for the book list!
 
Just a clarification for those who may be confused:

Grain, as in grain "size" is the individual crystalline " grains" of the steel growing larger as they absorb the adjacent grains. This is controlled by the alloying, temperature, and time. Temperature has the most effect. The grain size can be reset by proper thermal cycling and started over again from any state. The past state is wiped out when reset.

Grain, as in grain "direction" in steel ( similar to the grain of wood) is the direction of the stretching as the huge billet ( tens of thousands of pounds) is rolled into a sheet or bar about 1/4" thick. This is what is meant by the statement that all knife steel is "pre-forged" at the mill. You can't really see grain direction most of the time, but it is there. Inclusions of silica and other oxides are squeezed thinner and directionally along this "grain direction". In complex load bearing parts, this grain can matter quite a lot. Imagine cutting a 90° shelf bracket from a block of steel. Not only would that be very inefficient material wise, it would have an inherent weakness where the grain was changed from being lengthwise on one arm to cross grain on the other. In a bracket forged/bent from a single bar, the angle would just continue the grain direction around the bend and along the other arm....much stronger. This grain direction is permanently locked into the bar of steel and will follow any shaping done in forging. Proper HT will remove any stresses placed on the directional change in shaping and leave the grain direction as strong as it was originally. It can not be erased by any method but melting the steel.

However, in bladesmithing, grain direction does not really matter as far as strength goes. It matters slightly in choosing how to cut a sheet into bars, but most of us use bars already cut, and the suppliers know how to orient them. The grain direction can have a visual effect in some cases, but not a significant structural effect.

In a forged blade, there are no angular changes that are load bearing. Forging the blade minutely thins any inclusions or oxide layers in the grain direction. But, since the 1/4" bar of steel has been rolled and reduced by a factor of hundreds already, the change may be imperceptible to anyone but a metallurgist in a laboratory. I would liken it to sending Bill gates a $10 bill and saying you made him a richer man. Yes, in a way you did, but not in a measurable way.

The old "Forged is Better" mostly comes from the day when the steel was much poorer in condition with large amounts of silica impurities unevenly distributed. Forging made it more even then... but not today.

A forged blade from modern steel is identical in all ways to a ground blade....unless the steel was damaged in the forging...in which case the ground blade may be better.

Proper HT methods and thermal cycling assure all blades leave the tempering oven as equals....regardless of how they were shaped.
 
To ad to Stacy's post, and go a little more off topic, it was the impurities in steel in the past that resulted in the need for differential hardening. That minimized the cost of the imperfections in terms of cracks or broken blades. In modern times, its simply a cosmetic feature based on the purity and quality of steels that are available to us now.
 
To ad to Stacy's post, and go a little more off topic, it was the impurities in steel in the past that resulted in the need for differential hardening. That minimized the cost of the imperfections in terms of cracks or broken blades. In modern times, its simply a cosmetic feature based on the purity and quality of steels that are available to us now.
Unless the smith is working with Just a forge, in which case the fastest and easiest (maybe the only) way is differentially temper the blade.
 
Only with lots of butter or real maple syrup.

I've been quenching cornbread in honey for years, never had one warp on me yet. Comes out slightly higher Rc than a butter quench, but the carbides are perfect!
 
I've been doing a bean quench that's had some pretty great results. You get some toxic fumes later on though. lol.
 
I know I'm going to regret getting in this conversation, but here goes. First, I'm no metallurgist, not even a google one.

What I have observed from testing, IN MY SHOP, is that some steels will noticeably perform better after forging than stock removal. A number of years ago I did a test with a bar of 52100. I sliced a section off a 2" bar with the bandsaw, and forged the rest out into a blade. The piece I sliced off was not forged, but went through the same heating and cooling cycles as the forged blade. Keep in mind, the 2" bar was forged down from 6" round bar. Long story short, I ground both knives as close as I could to the same profile and geometry, then tested. After a bunch of cutting and destructive testing, the forged blade showed roughly 30% better edge holding and slightly better toughness. The toughness was nearly the same though, I didn't see any huge improvements. One thing I did notice was that when I etched the blades the stock removal had a damascus like patterning, the forged had this as well but the patterning was a lot finer. Long story short, I spent a couple of days testings and forging did improve the blade. The forging temps never exceeded 1625 deg. F., and the closer the blade was to finished the lower the heats. The reason I did the test like that was I was wondering if the improvements I'd noticed prior to this was due to forging, or to the number of thermal cycles the blades went through.

Would the end user notice the difference in the real world? Probably not. My conclusion from observational data is that forging does improve a blade, with some steels and in some cases, some times, if the forging is done rite.
 
Will, ignore this post. I re-read your post, and realized I hadn't properly digested what you said. Too many variables to attempt to pinpoint, things, so I'll butt out.
 
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