What do you spend the most on?

K

Kevin R. Cashen

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Sep 9, 2003
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Stacy’s thread about expense, and galadduin’s response about abrasives got me wondering about my own shop since I believe my largest expense is also grinding belts. But I have sometimes wondered if I am doing things right and if some of my largest expenses are the same as what others have. So I started this thread out of curiosity in order to see if I am inline with others and if there is a way to stream line the expenses of my operation.

What would you folks say are your top expenses in your shop?

I guess what I am looking for is money spent vs. amount of use, for example I spent over $1,000 on some of my equipment but quickly made it all back in time saved, the improvement it brought to my operation and use it so much that I don’t know how I got along without it. E.g. My equipment and supplies for salt bath heat treating has easily cost thousands over the years but for me it would still be worth it at double what ever the final tally is, so like much of my equipment that doesn’t even seem like an expense. If you have been doing this for while equipment doesn’t seem like an expense because you recognized a specific need for it by suffering along for a while without it, so large acquisitions rarely sit in the corner unused, but new guys starting out may get more advice from others as to what they need and end up with equipment expenditures that can fall short of expectations.

But with belts, I burn them up at the same rate I always have, there is constant supply of them coming into my shop. If I pay $100 dollars for a shipment of steel I spend many, many times more in belts in order to process that steel into knives.

This all made me think, and for me it may line up like this:

1. Abrasives $$$
2. High end handle materials $$ (although one can recoup this)
3. LP gas $

How does it work in other folks shop?


P.S. I didn't include time in this question since it so far out weighs everyting else that it was pointless, and if most knifemakers where to add up all the time used up on one knife they would suddenly see minimum wage as really cool!:( (if you want to stay married never allow your wife to evaluate this business on an hourly wage basis:eek:) :thumbdn:
 
Definitly belts!!

On each 4" folder blade i use:

1 977 cubitron 50 grit
1 977 cubitron 120 grit
1 klingspore 220 grit
1 klingspore 400 grit
1 shroeder 600 grit

Sometimes i alternate between the klingspore and 3m-ite belts.but as you can see each blade costs me about $15-$20 to grind. these belts last only one knife because i always have handles to dome/grind which are titanium,so i use the same set of belts that i used to grind blades.but still,spending roughly $20 on belts for just one small folder can add up very quick!

I also go through alot of counterbores for bearing races,but recently upgraded to carbide so i hope that $100 c-bore lasts a while.these are my main expenses!

EDIT to add: i'm going to order some of the cf trizact belts today to try,apparently they're the goods :)
 
Belts and sheet sand paper are high on the list for sure. Of course, there's nothing like breaking three taps in a row on one liner.
 
My biggest expense is time. I make all my guards, bolsters, etc from scratch with drills and files. Just take sme a long time(it seems) Same with the leatherwork.
 
balibalistic said:
Definitly belts!!

On each 4" folder blade i use:

1 977 cubitron 50 grit
1 977 cubitron 120 grit
1 klingspore 220 grit
1 klingspore 400 grit
1 shroeder 600 grit

Sometimes i alternate between the klingspore and 3m-ite belts.but as you can see each blade costs me about $15-$20 to grind. these belts last only one knife because i always have handles to dome/grind which are titanium,so i use the same set of belts that i used to grind blades.but still,spending roughly $20 on belts for just one small folder can add up very quick!

I also go through alot of counterbores for bearing races,but recently upgraded to carbide so i hope that $100 c-bore lasts a while.these are my main expenses!

EDIT to add: i'm going to order some of the cf trizact belts today to try,apparently they're the goods :)
Click to expand...

Excellent information:thumbup: This really helps me get grip on where I am at in relation to others.
 
I didn't think the handle material was an expense but for a blade, yes the highest cost is handle material most of the time. A pair of stabilized burl scale costs me about 30 bucks as I import them. I can reduce it to 25 if I import a big batch but I like to get my handle material after I design the profiles I'll be grinding. So for a 8" chefs knife my estimates of cost:
1- Handle material: 25 - 30 $
2- Grinding Belts & Abrasive Sheets: ~15 - 20 $
3- Steel (RWL34): ~15$
4- Corby Rivets: 3 $
5- Electric Cost for HT: .5 - 1 $
6- Acetone - Alcohol - Teak Oil etc : .3-.4 $
7- Epoxy - Super Glue etc : .2-.3 $

Total approximate material Cost for a burl handle RWL 8" Chefs knife is about 65-70 $.
So the handle material cost is about 40% of the total cost, where the cost of abrasives is about %25...
 
On some knives, handle material such as stag is the biggest cost, but you are right about belts. It seems like even thinking about ordering them automatically sucks a hundred dollars out of your bank account before you even bother to go to the supplier website.:eek::D
 
Definitely belts for me too. I use the same belts you do, Kevin, and I think I use about 4 or five belts per blade. As you know, if heat treating using the salts, then I can do all the grinding before heat treating, and this cuts the belts used about in half, which wouldn't take long to pay off the $475 it cost to build my high temp pot. :thumbup:

I don't use much high end handle material, and I get a lot of my phenolics from ebay, which saves a lot of money sometimes.
 
Mine would be,

Mammoth and Walrus Ivory averaging $200.00 a knife.
Next would be sanding belts at an average of about $20.00 a knife.
When I make a very complex damascus pattern I usually end up with 1/3 the billet I started with, so that would be about $15.00 to $20.00.
Then there is the never ending want and sometimes need to buy more tools. (files, drill bits, taps and dies, a bigger milling machine etc...) ( :

This is a great thread!
 
Phillip Patton said:
Definitely belts for me too. I use the same belts you do, Kevin, and I think I use about 4 or five belts per blade. As you know, if heat treating using the salts, then I can do all the grinding before heat treating, and this cuts the belts used about in half, which wouldn't take long to pay off the $475 it cost to build my high temp pot. :thumbup:

I don't use much high end handle material, and I get a lot of my phenolics from ebay, which saves a lot of money sometimes.
Click to expand...

I have found for some reason that the belts last longer if I grind in batches instead of approaching things on a one blade at a time basis, this is probably due to the already mentioned little uses on miscellaneous items between blades. I know I go through more belts than expected because I am very neurotic about using sharp belts and when the abrasive quits cutting very crisply I get a new one. However I know that this helps in reducing time in hand finishing, a sharp brand new 400X or 600X belt will result in a blade that will hand finish in mere minutes while a slightly used one will make much more time in hand rubbing. I expect to get 2 hunter blades from one of the green Fintech zirconias and use at least one belt for every bowie blade 10” or longer. At 400X or 600X I force myself to use 1 belt per hunter blade in order to facilitate hand finishing. Then those belts can still be used for while on nonferrous or handles.

Of all the benefits of the salts I appreciate the ability to totally finish out the blade while it is at 25-30HRC more every year I do this. :thumbup:
 
Kyle Royer said:
Mine would be,

Mammoth and Walrus Ivory averaging $200.00 a knife...
Click to expand...


This is why handle material was on my list, most handle materials are not a concern, but I have a weakness for fossil ivories and often end up almost $1,000 in the hole due to the pieces that come home with me from the Blade show. Then with stag costing $50 for anything that is usable and desert ironwood in a similar range, the part of the knife in front of the guard is chicken feed compared to the time and materials behind it, but as bladesmiths we tend to focus on that blade and forget about what we go through for the rest:confused:.
 
Belts are probably my biggest expense. I feel I get a more crisp clean grind after heat treat so I tend to use another belt or two. I don't know that I honestly saw that big a difference in belt use changing to grinding after heat treat. I need to watch that a little more close and see. Running a close second would be things I THINK I need, I always want the newest greatest and latest as far as tools and that gets expensive. I've spent more on file guides, files, drill bits and crap I didn't need than I care to admit.
 
2 points I see missed here . The cost of quality leather for the sheaths and the cost of shipping these days . I try to buy as much as possible from one supplier to keep ship cost down but if you have to buy from several different suppliers the shipping cost add up fast .
 
Oh,i almost forgot:

Titanium!! using nothing but .1875" 6AL4V gets pretty damn expensive,not to mention the tools neccisary to work it.i've recently come to reamize that 3/4" cobalt roughers just dont cut it...,pun intended :)
 
Belts and handle material are what I spend the most on. That said, I probably use my belts far too long when i should scrap them and move on to a new belt too. I know that belts are one of the most expensive things and as a result try to stretch them out longer than I should, and probably end up wasting more time than I need to.
 
propane, tooling, belts, steel, handle materials in that order
Since I got bitten by the damascus bug and don't have a press or powerhammer I'll go through 50-100 pounds of propane for every billet I handforge

I really need to build a press!
for handle material I use antlers from friends, a couple boards of cocobolo and purpleheart I bought as 4 foot boards, and a couple of large antlers I bought at a medieval fair for dirt cheap

-Page
 
Im gonna say Abrasives! Belts, Disks, Sand Paper ect. Not only for the blade but also for the handle material.

For example for a knife with an Iron wood handle I will use 36g, 120g, 220g, 400g just for the blade then The hand sanding, I use my old Jflex belts for this so I save a bit but I still buy 600g-1500g to do the finishing on the blade, the handle has to be sanded as well 60g, 120g, 400g, then the hand sanding down to 1500g The finer grits are cost a bit more for sand paper and you dont get as much, and buffing abrasives, I use my Disk for guards to make sure they are flat so there is another 120g disk.
 
Power hammer #1
Steel #2
Propane #3
Grinder #4
Water stones #5

I just got my hammer running so it hasn't paid for itself yet, and I'm a steel junkie.
 
I would say Handle Materials at #1, then Belts at #2 mainly because i buy em once a year and use mainly blaze belts, so i pretty much never throw them away.

Steel isnt a factor since i use simple steels that are cheap.

Handle materials can get out of hand, though....I like pretty wood and stag, so it can be costly to stock up rather than sourcing pieces for each knife.
 
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