What do you think of GIN 5

What is it? I've never heard of it, and I thought that I was pretty up on the various steels. Just goes to show ya.....

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Isn't it amazing how 2 cents worth of opinion takes up a quarter's worth of paper???

wrightknife@ixpres.com


 
It doesn't look that exciting, a bit like Sandvic 12C27. If it's like Sandvic it should be easy to sharpen, but not particularly tough. I like VG-10 better. It is tough, takes a great edge, and is corrosion resistant.
 
Chromium is the only carbide former, and there's not much of it. And low carbon means you'll keep this a bit soft. Obviously you're not looking at this as your new high-end stainless. Are you looking at this as a replacement for 425M?

Joe
 
Jeff,

I too find that the posted specs don't excite very much. I guess I've been spoiled by some of the more exotic materials. I'd much sooner see you folks expand BG-42 use and/or add stuff like VG-10, CPM440V, CPM420V, or even my favorite of all, Talonite!

-=[Bob]=-
 
Jeff,
Doesn't do anything for me. If Buck Knives is looking for another lowend steel for blanking, go with the Sandvic from Sweden. It's much cleaner and should blank out without too much tool wear.
Dan
 
Just something we tried on some 110's. Had the same CATRA testing curve as 420hc. We won't be going with this, just was curious.
We are working on a prop. mix to come out next year to replace our everyday steel. Will be higher grade and american made.

Jeff

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
Quality Supervisor

JeffH@buckknives.com
www.buckknives.com
Watch for Pete's Custom Knife Shoppe on www.buckknives.com

 
Well since Jeff brought up AUS-8, I have a question. Exactly which steels *are* suitable for fine blanking? I'm guessing that Buck isn't going to get away from fine blanking, but just wants to fine blank with a better-performing steel than 420HC.

Regarding high-end steels, perhaps this should be in a separate "where would you like to see Buck going" thread. But I'm very against Buck going to ATS-34. Why? Because I think Buck really lost its edge for a while there, but with the past few years is showing signs of trying to regain spiritual leadership in the knife industry. Buck has been trying all the right things -- tactical folders, collaborations with custom makers, etc. -- sometimes succeeding and sometimes not (IMO). In any case, one doesn't regain leadership by doing me-toos. ATS-34 is a me-too. Hey, the real leaders in the industry are looking past ATS-34 already. The way to regain leadership is to leapfrog the leaders -- that means going to BG-42 at least for a highend steel, and dabbling with the newer (420V, talonite, etc.) or higher-performing (A-2, D-2, etc.) steels!

There's more to regaining leadership than just the steel, but I'd like to see Buck looking past the me-too stage and at more bold initiatives.

I could write reams on this, but I'll control myself. I really root for Buck for a number of reasons, and think if they'd look just a little further they'd do something great

Joe



[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 08 July 1999).]
 
I like what Joe said. I think that you need to be clearly the "best in class" in some area that is simple to market to a large customer base. You have started on the "sharpness" road with your new Edge 2000 process. I would augment this with a finer grained steel that will let you promote the sharper edge for the 21st century.

These are the reasons that AUS-8, Sandvic, and VG-10 come to mind. All of these take very sharp edges and are relatively easy to keep razor sharp (generally I find vanadium helps while too much molybdenum seems to make steel hard to hand sharpen). I would ship the knives with the sharpest factory edge in the industry. I would couple these with a well matched sharpening system that can let any user keep a razor edge. An approach like this would support a "new and improved" image. Cold Steel has done a lot in this area, but they have more of a combat image. Buck is well positioned to expand its share in the sportsman's market.

To capture the combat image market I think you would need VG-10 or equivalent. You need to at least one-up your volume market competitor Cold Steel.

I think you should have a VG-10 option for most of your bigger folders.

Remember, without a sharp edge it is not a knife, it is a club.

PS. What I have been saying is based on the assumption that you have found BG-42 too expensive to use in the mass market. If you could do it I would just as soon see BG-42 anywhere or everywhere. I'd gotten an impression that VG-10 was cheaper.

****
PPS. If Gerber can use ATS-34 in their EZ-Out knives, why can't Buck use VG-10?
****


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 09 July 1999).]
 
I mentioned ATS34 earlier for a reason. As a dealer, I am in constant contact with customers and CUSTOMERS know ATS34. CUSTOMERS like ATS34. CUSTOMERS BUY ATS34.

There may be better steels than ATS34. It may be a "me too" steel, but it sells and that is the goal of any manufacturer. ATS34 has proven itself in the marketplace and has the recognition in the general populace.

BG42, VG10, CPM and others are known and liked by many experts and aficianados, but the general public usually asks "what's that?" when they see those designations. Like it or not, the general public is where the majority of the business is and that is what it's all about for any company. BUSINESS!

Buck Knives, Inc. could do a lot worse than to hang their star on a proven, recognized material like that.

If they can make the Odyssey in ATS34 to sell for $49.00 retail then the pricing could be right in line with the general product line now.

They could always produce premium lines using the more exotic and costly steels and charge accordingly.

ATS34 sure hasn't hurt Benchmade.

Dennis



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Isn't it amazing how 2 cents worth of opinion takes up a quarter's worth of paper???

wrightknife@ixpres.com


 
I think the timing is wrong to tool up for ATS-34 at this point. It is sort of "last year's alloy" and demand is likely to decline in the future. When you go into a new design or process you either want it to be very economical or you want to hit a premium trend as it is going into fashion rather than past the crest of it's popularity.

If Buck selects a custom alloy they don't get alloy "name recognition" anyway. You need to go for performance. I kind of like recognisable alloy designations. Regardless, I would go for something with vanadium in the alloy.
 
I have to say I agree with what most everyone has said. If Buck is serious they need a top notch steel. In my view Buck is way behind in several areas. Choosing a top notch steel is a first step. I agree with Jeff Clark ATS is old news and is on the way out. Something like VG 10 or any of the other steels mentioned would be a better choice. All the steels I saw mentioned would be better than what is being used now even ATS. As far as putting out the sharpest knives on the market good luck. Spyderco is putting out knives that are so sharp it is amazing. Buck does have one major advantage. They have larger production capability than most and can sell at a higher volume. Because of this they can get better pricing on materials due to their larger purchases. Thus Buck could be very competitive with any US manufacturer on price. If Buck can bring excellent designs, top notch materials (especially blade steels), and knives that are as sharp as anyones at a slightly lower price point than the others. They would be a major force. I honestly don't think some of Bucks competitors views them as a serious competitor due to the lower end materials they use. The knife market is expanding rapidly and buyers are better educated now and are demanding better materials and performance in the knives they buy.

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
Well, I know better than to argue with a dealer about what will sell *now*. I'm sure Dennis is right, ATS-34 knives will sell big for Buck today.

But that isn't necessarily what we're talking about here. As I said, Buck can do a me-too and sell plenty of knives. But in the long run, I'd like to see Buck take a leadership role in the business -- and I bet if we ask Buck's management, that's the position they'd like to be in also. A group of ATS-34 me-too folders (like the Odysseys, say) I'm sure will bring in $$, but will not move Buck into the kind of leadership position Benchmade, Spyderco, and even smaller companies like EDI command. Plain and simple, the companies leading the way have been looking beyond ATS-34 for a couple years now. How many years do you want to be way behind while your smaller competitors dictate swallow market share and dictate the pace of innovation?

This is a simple tactical issue -- go for lots of big me-too sales now, or come up with something innovative and use your marketing arm to punch it into the consumer's consciousness.

Joe
 
No arguments here guys, just opinions. We all know what those are worth.

You all call it "me too". I call it "get with the program". The object of a business is to sell your product. You do that by recognizing what the public is buying and going with it.

I wasn't saying that Buck should go to ATS34 and stop. I think that the idea of taking a "leadership" position, if that's what you want to call it, is a great idea, but what's wrong with upgrading the base product to what the market is going for now and giving oneself a better financial base to work with?

There is risk involved with introducing new and unfamiliar products/materials to a market that is, in general, very conservative and cautious. If a buyer is going to lay down big bucks for the latest wiz-bang kuttenstabber, he has to know what is in it and be confident that it will do what he is paying for it to do.

We as dealers and manufacturers have to be able to assure him that it is worth the money that he is parting with. That usually means tried-and-true materials (steel, handle material, etc.) that he is familiar with. The biggest complaint that I hear about Buck knives (after "they are too hard to sharpen") is that the steel they use isn't as good as what Benchmade or some of the other "quality" makers use.

Rightly or wrongly, ATS34 has the recognition and reputation for being used in high quality, high performance knife blades. It isn't going anywhere soon. I believe it will be around for a long time. That doesn't mean that all customers will shy away from exotic or special steels by any means, but the average buyer is not that adventurous, especially when it comes to money.

We can probably all agree that Steels like BG42, VG10 and the CPMs are great steels for knife blades and would like to see more of their use in production pieces. I know I would, but something has to be the bread-and-butter product. Why not upgrade the basic stuff to ATS34 and use the increased sales to pay for the research and development of the new stuff, and the cost of promoting it?

We have to remember that the majority of the buyers aren't on these forums and don't have the background or interest that we do. It is going to take some convincing to sell an average knife buyer on the idea of paying twice as much for that BG42 blade when he "KNOWS" what ATS34 will do. Leadership roles are good for the ego but can often times put one so far out front that there is nothing to fall back on.

Build knives out of the good stuff? You bet. Start a program of premium knives and keep it going. Promote the daylights out of it. Don't make them "limited editions" hoping that customers will think they are buying instant collector items. That market is too narrow and not very deep. Sell to the people who want knives they can USE. Just remember that most buyers aren't metallurgists(sp?) or knifemakers and wouldn't know one steel from another if they didn't read about it in Blade Magazine, Knives Illustrated or Tactical Knives.

Spyderco became a leader in the industry, not because of the steels they use, (heck, they use so many different steels that it is hard to keep track of them), but because of their radical new designs. It took a long, hard promotion program to get people to try and then accept them. It worked because of their PR and their quality.

I don't regard Benchmade or EDI in that category. They aren't leaders. They just recognized a trend and went with it. They were smart enough to realize that the customers already knew about the materials they were using. They made their knives look good and, in the case of BM, put other peoples' names on them. Marketing. They "got with the program"

Peace.

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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods

wrightknife@ixpres.com

 
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