What do you think of Tom Brown Jr.?

The main reason the classes cost what they is because of the insurance, the school, I read, has actually only turned a profit for three years out of twenty-five.
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I personally thought that his class prices were reasonable; what was it, like $850 for the entire week for the average class? That is not bad, in my opinion!

Do I believe that he doesn't turn a profit? Not for a second! However, he should turn a profit for his work. He should be fairly priced so that people can afford the expense, yet him and his staff should be able to make a decent living.

I see know harm in that!

Now about this $950 per day thing that someone mentioned...that seems unreasonable, however, I don't recall seeing that on his website. Is this his rate for private instruction?

PAUL
 
Originally posted by Thomas Linton
For $850 per week, how much time do you get from TB himself?
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I have no idea...I have not done any of his courses; that was just the average price on the website.

PAUL
 
One thing I will say on the subject, is that it seems to me that most of the negative opinions on him come from people who have never met the man (I am saying overall, not just here). This is fine, they are entitled to their opinions.

Since I haven't met him, and I know very little personal information about him outside his books, I can't really formulate an opinion.

I am curious to hear thoughts from those who actually attended the school, or from those who have actually met or learned from Tom Brown Jr.

PAUL
 
Originally posted by Paul Janulis
One thing I will say on the subject, is that it seems to me that most of the negative opinions on him come from people who have never met the man (I am saying overall, not just here). This is fine, they are entitled to their opinions.

Since I haven't met him, and I know very little personal information about him outside his books, I can't really formulate an opinion.

I am curious to hear thoughts from those who actually attended the school, or from those who have actually met or learned from Tom Brown Jr.

PAUL
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Welp, I've taken about six classes from his school in the past 10 yrs.
I can atest he knows his stuff, but does distance himself from the students. Especially in the first class. In his more adv classes, he gets more personable, just a bit though.
However, if he sees you strugeling with a skill in the class, he'll come over to offer advice.
As Grant stated, most of the school cost is for insurance, the rest goes to the schools instructors, food, and the like.
Tom doesn't do the small classes anymore, but he does have a pricey one on one class. I did talk to him about it, as I expressed interest. Got a good laugh from him when I told him it was a groupie trap geared towards those who wants to sniff his @$$:barf: :footinmou
He admitted that was true, but he does reserve the one on one classes for those he knows, knows their skills.

So, if anyone has questions for me, please ask. I'll answer.


Joe
 
I am not as familiar with Mr. Browns teaching's as I am with Larry Dean Olsen's, but much of the primitive skills they teach are similar. If your the "typical" outdoorsman you would probably be better off with David Alloway's 'Desert Survival Skills' or Hoods Woods Video's as they teach you how to use your survival kit for short term emergencies until professional help can find you.
If on the other hand you wish more long term primitive skills, these can not be learned by reading. That’s where taking several weeks of in the field training with competent instructors comes in. It is not cheap and it requires both a physical and mental commitment from the student that only one in a hundred can do. I have been fortunate to meet many of these people at Rabbitstick and other primitive arts gatherings. Their skills demonstrate years of learning and it fits into their lifestyle.
I have also unfortunately met many "students" who have taken a couple of Mr. Brown's classes and think they know it all because they have transcended into wilderness crusaders. They give his school a bad name because they were not committed to learning primitive skills, but instead wanted to show how superior they were to the rest of us because they were "one with nature".
Wilderness Schools are much like custom knives, you get what you pay for and what you put into learning how to use them properly.
 
Originally posted by Allen242
I am not as familiar with Mr. Browns teaching's as I am with Larry Dean Olsen's, but much of the primitive skills they teach are similar. If your the "typical" outdoorsman you would probably be better off with David Alloway's 'Desert Survival Skills' or Hoods Woods Video's as they teach you how to use your survival kit for short term emergencies until professional help can find you.
If on the other hand you wish more long term primitive skills, these can not be learned by reading. That’s where taking several weeks of in the field training with competent instructors comes in. It is not cheap and it requires both a physical and mental commitment from the student that only one in a hundred can do. I have been fortunate to meet many of these people at Rabbitstick and other primitive arts gatherings. Their skills demonstrate years of learning and it fits into their lifestyle.
I have also unfortunately met many "students" who have taken a couple of Mr. Brown's classes and think they know it all because they have transcended into wilderness crusaders. They give his school a bad name because they were not committed to learning primitive skills, but instead wanted to show how superior they were to the rest of us because they were "one with nature".
Wilderness Schools are much like custom knives, you get what you pay for and what you put into learning how to use them properly.
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Allen, unfortunetly, those are the bane of my existance, those damn groupies. I've heard ALL the horror stories about them and met them once.
I'll tell you out right, if I see that, I'll be the first one in their face chewing them out. My favorite line on them is, put up or shut up. Know your skills before shooting your mouth off.
I've been to different primtive skills events, and I ALWAYS pan out when asked. If I don't know a skill, I'll admit it. Simple.
And the Tracker schools isn't the only school I go to, its just the closest. :p ;)
I had the honor and privlage to go on a trek with Ron Hood a few years back, and had a blast! Learned quite a bit too, and I've learned a lot from the Tracker school as well. It's all in prespective.


Joe
 
Originally posted by Declan
Paul, here is the link to Tom's $950.00 a day pricing!

http://www.trackerschool.com/TomsClasses.htm
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His regular classes seem very fair to me. But this private class seems outragous. That's almost $136 per hour just to learn "the way his grandfather taught him." I feel that is unfair. I could almost understand if this was a price trap for Tom Brown worshippers (even though I wouldn't agree) but it doesn't seem that way. For someone to get in the class, they must go through the prerequisites (standard class and philosophy I) and has to go through an acceptance process, then they should be offered a fair price. If they've been "accepted," then they shouldn't have to be wealthy too. It just doesn't make sense to me. This aspect of things seems to conflict with the philosophy expressed in his books.

Now, maybe there are different rates for people he knows a little more personally. I don't know. But by the looks of things on the surface, this doesn't seem fair to me.

PAUL
 
So, if anyone has questions for me, please ask. I'll answer.
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Yea, man. Help me understand more about his one-on-one class. How is this a groupie trap when you have to be personally excepted by Tom Brown (assuming that you won't be accepted if you don't know enough skills, or if you aren't yet fit for the class)? Why the steep pricing? How does this price structure fit in with his overall philosephy as expressed in his books?

Please help me to understand, because I am confused and concerned.

Thanks,

PAUL
 
"The first part of the day will be dedicated to each student's interests and Visions, but the second part of the day will teach the skills and visions that have always inspired me. Here I can spontaneously teach, taking the student on a journey through my eyes, my mind, and my heart. These lessons will be taught in much the same way, if not identical, to the way Grandfather taught me, using mythology, demonstration, stories, and actual journeys throughout the Pine Barrens. Subsequently, the classes will not only be personalized and very intense, but each class different".


So, not only is it almost a grand a day, but it seems there is no curiculum. It's you paying a thousand dollars to hang out and hear his opinion on life. Hell, I got my own and its absolutely free!
 
What Joe said about the Tracker School is pretty much right on. What I always tell people when they ask me about it is to read some of his books first. Then, if you go, go for the skills and not to meet Tom or talk to him or hang out with him, because you won't get to. If you go just for the skills, I don't think you can find a better school. If you go looking for a guru, you wil be dissapointed.

Kevin Haney, Coordinator
Mid-Atlantic Primitive Skills Group
"Where primitive is not a pejorative!"
www.mapsgroup.org
 
Yea...and that totally makes sense. If I decide to take the standard class, I would be going for the skills. If the instructors there are knowledgable and can teach me the skills I will need, then I'll be happy, regardless of whether I will meet Tom Brown Jr. or not. I don't need a guru.

I am however concerned still about a few issues I have yet to have answered.

#1 My question regrading the private class, particularly the cost.

#2 The David Beck/Tom Brown Tracker knife thing; did they have a falling out, story behind it, etc.

Thanks,

Paul Janulis
 
Originally posted by Paul Janulis
Yea...and that totally makes sense. If I decide to take the standard class, I would be going for the skills. If the instructors there are knowledgable and can teach me the skills I will need, then I'll be happy, regardless of whether I will meet Tom Brown Jr. or not. I don't need a guru.

I am however concerned still about a few issues I have yet to have answered.

#1 My question regrading the private class, particularly the cost.
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Can't really offer an answer, as I didn't take it. Decided to turnit down, and I haven't heard fromany one else who took it. As I siad, its probably a groupie trap to get money. Hey, ever try to sheer a smart sheep? That's why its easier to sheer a smart sheep.

[/B][/QUOTE] #2 The David Beck/Tom Brown Tracker knife thing; did they have a falling out, story behind it, etc.[/B][/QUOTE]


Don't know, heard conflicting reports on both sides. Its the he said he said thing. Not my problem or buisness, and I learned to keep out of other peoples gripes.

Just my .02 worth.


Joe
 
Here is the logic trap, as I see it: the spiritual aspects of the "Tracker" philosophical position are essentially anti-commercial/anti-big business in orientation. They exalt in the fact that Nature is either A) its own entity, "owned" by no human being; and/or B) Nature is "owned by all of us, thus no one group has the right to poison Nature and to impose negative externalities on the rest of us.

I believe that these are very valid points and I think Tom Brown articulates them quite well. The first issue should be addressed by the cultivation of outdoor skills and adventures and the second (unfortunately) has to be addressed by enlightened public policy.

The problem starts when you take this position and start selling it in a hyper-capitalist manner. Doing so restricts the message to those who are probably "enthusiasts," anyway. I am a capitalist and believe in free market pricing mechanisms, so my issue is not with the cost; my issue is with the mixing of canned spiritualism/philosophy with high fees. This can easily turn into Cult 101-type behavior, wherein naive, would-be modern Druids/Apaches pay relatively high fees to find some cosmic answers that no man can give them for ANY material price. Once you pay the fees, you will have a vested interest in defending the philosophy against any perceived criticisms from "foolish outsiders" who "just don't get it." You can see how the Us vs. Them mindset creates a pool of eager repeat customers who will keep the profit-making machine running smoothly.

I'm not claiming that this is what Brown is doing; I'm sure he is a good man. But anyone with a capacity for independent critical thought can see the possible moral hazards here. One thing I can say with certainty is that it is inappropriate for an instructor who charges high fees to bad-mouth the "non-serious" students who show up at his school. That's failure of the ****ing instructor, period. No excuses. It it's a free course, I understand; if not, then the instructor needs to shut up and provide the service that he is being compensated to provide.

In almost all cases, I personally believe that they would be better off spending that money to go hike the Inca Trail or something.

Re: costs of insurance. This seems dubious, frankly. Certainly at the basic level these are not "high risk" courses. There are plenty of packaged outdoor activities that involve far more risk and do not charge this much. A properly constructed limited liability waiver and legal structure would protect Brown and the staff enough that any residual risk could be addressed by a simple wraparound policy of some kind. I'm not an insurance actuary but I do work with quantitative risk measurement analysis for a living and I don't see how this fits.

There's nothing wrong with Tom Brown saying, "I charge these fees because I can. I want to have a nice life and financial security just like everyone else. If my attendance drops, I will lower my course fees. If attendance rises, I will raise it. This is a business." The concerns start when people are running a business, a straight out business, and pretend that the transactions involved (I want to learn a skill = I pay to be taught the skill) are somehow non-businesslike and "spiritual."

The absolute best instructors in their fields in the world---I would count my good friend "SouthNarc" as an example---agonize over pricing decisions because they have to juggle the critical, life-saving importance of what they teach with the practical administrative requirements of modern life. What you often find is that they prefer Old World small group and individual apprenticeship styles of teaching, use a customized pricing rate depending on the context of the situation, and become more and more selective about who they are willing to teach.

Sorry for the long post.
 
the spiritual aspects of the "Tracker" philosophical position are essentially anti-commercial/anti-big business in orientation. They exalt in the fact that Nature is either A) its own entity, "owned" by no human being; and/or B) Nature is "owned by all of us, thus no one group has the right to poison Nature and to impose negative externalities on the rest of us.
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So, he has a capitalist venture promoting communism. :rolleyes:

n2s
 
LOL, those concepts have been around a little longer than the words communism and capitalism, say 10,000 years or so.;)
 
Very articulate post.

You are expressing my exact concerns; and why I am looking for some answers before I put my money out to take a week out of my life for a course.

I love being in the wilderness, I am highly comfortable there; but I will be the first to say that I am lacking in survival skills. I know that sometime soon I need a course to teach me essentials. I would rather do a course (or even a series) that will teach me me quality rather then a crash course that will teach quanity. I am interested in learning from a spiritual/native american prospective. For these reasons, Tom Browns school seem a good fit for me.

However, I don't want to be a part of something that is hypocritical by design. I don't want to learn from someone who sounds good in theory from books, but who doesn't practice what they preach. I don't want to learn from someone who doesn't give 3 S**Ts about what they are teaching, but only cares about making a buck. I don't want a teacher who couldn't give a crap about me as a student, but who only cares about the green in my pockets.

I am more accustomed to the martial arts/combative's world then I am the wilderness survival world. Unfortunatily, there is no shortage of @$$clowns in "martial arts." I have been very careful in coming up in my training, only to be very lucky to not have fallen into a trap. I have met so many liers in "martial arts"; people lying about there credentials, lying about military records, rank, what master so-and-so told them, etc. I have grown an extreme distaste for hypocrites and scam artists who abuse people's honest desire to learn.

Now, is Tom Brown a hypocrite in the wilderness survival universe like so many of the ill appointed sensei's, Soke's, Tuhons, Sifu's, and Guro's I have run into in the martial arts world? God I hope not...I really like his books. But the fact is, I really don't know.

So, I am seeking answers, and I want to find them before I shell out my hard earned cash and my time. Belisarius articulated some possible concerns I have, which is why my line of questioning. I don't want to be taken for a fool...

PAUL
 
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