What do YOU think the law regarding knives in school should be??

2" blade limit. No rusty blades. No push knives. No fixed blades. If there are ANY problems with a student, be it threat, vandalism, violence, or any other abuse of a knife, a suspension would be in order. By the way, I think vandalism would be a problem, even if violence wasn't.

Howie
 
You know something, I have read this topic and resulting discussion verrrry sloowwwly to make sure that when it came time for me to give my "opinion" that it would not necessarrily cause a lot of those who have led sheltered lives and been taken care of until the time they left home, to think bad things. I personally believe that the main reason that "students" are percieved to be a problem is that no one wants to have them be "responsible for their own actions". Yes, I am over 50, carried a knife for more than 45 years, and only have hade one confiscated in boot camp where we learned to kill. Figure that one out.
Why do all people imagine that the "bad" dude is the one who has the knife. The kid in the school yard getting beat up may have a knife. He should have. The "bad boys" doing the beating may have anything, but they are less likely to initiate the encounter if they will not come out of it untouched. Bullies hate to get whipped in front of people. I don't care what kind of knife they carry if they will be responsible for their actions.
Automatics are for every one, especially the mugee who has little time to open his blade. The Mugger could have a time lock on his and be ready to use it when he wanted. My 5 year old wears one of my neck knives, scarey sharp, and at a knife show, I let him carry one of my liner locks. He would demonstrate the opening and closing for those that were unfamiliar with the closing mechanism. I taught him how to wipe it clean before he put it up and to always whittle away from himself. He has some minor nicks but has learned to be responsible for the knife.
I say, and again it is my opinion, if it is legal on the streets, it should be legal at school. I also believe that if they don't want an education, after they are about 14 yrs old, put them to work at something until they get smart enough to want to learn something that will pay more than the minimum.
I have yet to understand how anyone can consider a knife as an offensive weapon of choice. I can understand it as the last choice of survival.
Why do we need a separate law for knives in schools? What makes schools different from the movie theater, shopping mall, ball game, dance studio, or any place that more than 2 people get together???? Is it fear?? Fear of what? How do we expect a young person to learn to be responsible if they never have any responsibility? Like learning to swim by reading a book.
What would you do, if you were not responsible for anything you said or did? Does your conscience prevent you from being "bad" or is it because you learned to be responsible "after" you got out of school??

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Sorry to have ranted on for so long. Ignorance is very hard for me to tolerate in people that are supposed to be our wise leaders. When the people in Washington and the lawyers are looking for people to hang, every one is fair game. They actully have proven that stupidity pays. Like the lady that got Big Mac for the coffee burn. I had a great Aunt that stated that every thing she liked was"ileagle, immoral, or fattening". That was in 1954 and things have gotten worse.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Any one ever hear of Mumbly Peg?Used to play it at school.
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have a"knife"day
 
It is funny to me that many of us get upset at the notion of any limits on the right to carry knives. People who make fun of the notion that kids might cut themselves are doing kids a disservice. I have had knives since I was five and although I learned knife saftey early on, occassionally I did cut myself doing something dumb. If we honest, most of us will admit to cutting ourselves with knives as kids. The truth is that almost all of us cut ourselves flicking our one handers as adults! Since cuts are reality with knives I think it reasonable that elementary children not be allowed to carry knives. In our current sue happy society, teachers should not have to worry about some kid slicing himself with a Spyderco or Kershaw etc.

I also think that stringent blade limits are reasonable. The concept of the pocket knife as a legitimate tool needs to reintroduced to society and if medium or large knives are in school, both students and teachers will perceive them as weapons. I think a 2" limit is reasonable and absolutely no more than 2.5" and overall lengths should also be under 6". I don't see much point in people talking about what they could do when they were kids. Society's perceptions have changed and we have to deal with the current environment.

As for some of the young forum members who feel that adults want to deny them everything, I say that most teenagers consider themselves mature, even the ones who do obviously immature things. Similarly most drivers think they are safe, even the ones who constantly get into wrecks and get tickets. It is an unfortunate reality that people, not just kids, need rules and guidelines. Sometimes rules keep us from doing exactly what we want, but that is the price of an orderly society. If we honest with ourselves we will admit that although we might easy on knives, there are probably other items that we wouldn't mind being regulated. We have to remember this when we are talking about reintroducing knives to an environment where they have been essentially banned.

 
I believe that institutions should follow the simple rule of acceptable community standards for setting limits on behavior of all types. I disagree with any policy of “Zero Tolerance”, as it treats a simple mistake with the same consideration as a malicious act. All such a policy does is foster an attitude of intolerance and allow the administration to avoid the responsibility of making decisions on a case by case basis.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
The whole knives in school thing is a pretty stupid debate. Banning them from school just shows the ignorance of administrators, teachers, and parents. Back when I was high school, I would have much rather faced someone with a pocket knife than a hammer, or screwdriver, etc, all of which were legal. People worry about guns and knives, and weapons in schools and overlook the obvious potential of baseball bats, combo locks attached to lengths of cord, hockey sticks, and wallet chains. I agree with one of the earlier posts "if it's street legal, it's school legal."
 
I have been out of public schools for about 15 years. I have had knives since I found my first one at age 4, but I only carried a knife in school my senior year. I was a school bus driver and needed to cut first aid supplies one time. My bus first aid kit didn't even offer cheap rounded scissors!
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I had to make do. After that event, I talked to the assistant principal. He couldn't do anything about it. I told him I was going to carry my knife. His response was, "I don't see it, I don't know it."

By right, I could have had serious trouble from that. I didn't because the man knew me. He knew I wasn't a threat. Unfortunately, teachers and administrators don't know their students today. Most of the small schools like I attended have been combined to make mega-schools that are understaffed and underperforming.

Although my "good old days" were not that long ago, I think in most matters of discipline and behavior we should go back a bit. I had principals that used a stiff word or a stiff board when necessary. We didn't have many of the kind of problems you hear about today.

Thanks for letting me rant!
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OOPS! I fell off my soapbox!
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Travis Autry
My knives are just like rabbits---they keep multiplying!!
 
I figured it was time for me to chime in with my opinions since I started the topic. Unforunately the whole knives in school thing isn't a "stupid debate". In Minnesota where I live it is a felony to have a knife in school. It is a good point about other things more accessible that could easily be used as a weapon(i.e. baseball bats, screwdrivers, etc.)However, this is a reality, if we don't act to protect the carry of knives in schools all citizens are losing. I don't mean to get anyone mad but this is life, and while it is legal for me to walk the streets with a knife as soon as I step foot in a school in Minnesota I can be charged with a felony. Thats wrong.
Now I think that there should also be a blade length limit, no auto's (as this would be a novelty and something to show off thereby possibly causing injury), no fixed blades(exception silverware,etc) and commonsense needs to be regained on the school board.
If any of you have the last "Blade" mag. check out the story about the student in Minn. arrested for carry in school.(charged and convicted of a felony).
Thanks for all your comments.
Eric
 
Guys, we're all missing the point. In my classroom, MISUSE of a knife will be punishable. If they don't misuse their knives, I should never find out they're there. By Illinois law I'm supposed to enforce "zero tolerance" but the truth is that zero tolerance is just plain stupid. It amounts to setting rigid rules beforehand so that those rules can be blamed later on when you don't want to make the decision.
"Nothing I can do, young man. Those are the rules." Well, if you had any part of making those rules, or have even ever expressed support for them in any way, the kids know you're a coward just trying to duck his responsibility.

I will not judge based on whether kids possess a knife.
I will not judge based on whether kids are "good kids" (I know that sounds like wishful thinking but I've had practice.)
BUT it will be clear that anyone who misuses a knife or threatens anyone with harm will get stomped by the giant Monty Python cartoon foot that is the state zero-tolerance policy.

I think that's fair.
 
I'm a sophomore in high school and I bring my Case Stockman every day. My wood shop teacher even caught my using it once in class to cut a thin piece of balsa wood and then he showed me his Buck 110!
 
I didn't intend to give anyone the idea that kids are the problem. Neither are knives. There are alot of good kids in school and I have no objection to them carrying knives to school as I did.
I also think they have a right to an education, free from intimidation and distraction of the 'undisciplined'. The school officials should be free to maintain control without fear of Rev. Jesse and 4 major news networks beating the doors down. My son is a juvenile court probation officer and has some interesting observations. The problem kids aren't raised by the parent(s), disciplined by the school or the courts, until their offenses are too serious to overlook.
Let the good kids carry.
 
Hey guys....

Well I've read most of the posts on this subject,, and I have to put my .02 in as well...

Although I'm for the safe legal use of knives both rec use as well as self defense. I don't think that knives Should be in our schools.

I'm 36 years old,,and come from a small Canadian hick town where they roll the streets up a 6:30 pm. Back in the late 70's early 80's when I went to school,,we solved problems with our fists not weapons.

I use to carry knives to school all the time,but would never think of pulling it on anyone. Most things could be handled with fists or my Grebs (work boots). Hell I was on the school Trap Shooting team.

There wasn't this BS as it is today. We never heard of anyone but bikers being cut or stabbed with a blade.

I seen something on the news last night that really bothered me...

""What You and your kids need to know about surviving School Shooting""

Geez they are teaching the kids how to protect themselves against someone armed with a shotgun....

The only thing we had to learn like that was the Fire Drill and Tornado Drill..

Pretty Friggin Sad!!!

I think if you are an adult with no Crim record not out to do harm there is No reason you shouldn't be able to carry what you want.

Gonna do the same damage and have the same potential to kill,,or on the other hand.. Give Life,, as we all well know!!!

Just like courts, airports,,stuff like that,,there has to be limits..
This stuff about searching people's cars though is stupid.. Case by Case as someone said earlier..

Just my thoughts...

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Sombody get a rope and lynch johan before he becomes a news anchor like fellow canadian peter jennings and starts spreading more of their "sheeple liberal crap."

My appologies to the rest of the good Canadians who do not walk in the footsteps of peter jennings.

[This message has been edited by knzn (edited 02-04-2000).]
 
I have carried a knife for most of forty years. Ever since I showed Dad that I knew enough not to misuse it. I had been allowed to use knives before this but only with permission. We, as kids, never thought of pulling a knife or gun on another person during an argument. Most of what is happening bad in the world is the fault of teaching the kids that there are no consequences to their actions. "It's not your falt!!! You didnot have all of the things you wanted. Your parents whipped you if you misbehaved."

Guys I don't know about you but where I grew up if you were caught doing something you shouldn't have been doing the person who caught you gave you a whipping on the spot, then called your mama or dad. You got another when you got home and another if oyu got home before your dad, two if you got home after dad did and you should have been home before him.


I saw a sig line the other day, went something like this:

Used to be we tried to world proof or kids. Now we try to kid proof the world.


We just need to world proof the kids again, and let them know that there are consequences to actions that you take.


rant mode off.

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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
I got my first pocket knife at 8 and carried it with me every day, everywhere. When I carried it to school, it was a tool and even at my worst daydream moment I never contemplated sticking it in someone.

I blame this strange attitude on my parents, who spent a lot of time they could have been out drinking and partying, working with me instead, giving me some morals and standards.

My son got his Spyderco Harpy at age 8 (family tradition). He got his CS vaquero grande at 13 and has his own collection of others. He always carries at least one knife and he carries it concealed (teach them young). When he gets to school he either slips it in his backpack or now leaves it in his car. Several times he forgot, but since he carries it concealed, no one saw it to say anything.

He has been training on and off in the FMA with me and his mom since he was old enough to stand up. He would rather be snowboarding, but he knows how to take care of himself. He has never hurt anyone, threatened anyone, vandalized anything, etc.

Yes, I'm bragging! I'm damn proud of him, but it's because his grandparents and parents took an interest in him, taught him right from wrong and made him toe the line.

Sorry about the rant, but I'm a very frustrated LEO, who is so damn tired of parents, teachers, attorneys etc. blaming every social, mental and physical problem in the book for kids behavior when they are just too damn lazy to put out the effort to raise decent kids.

On a lighter note, each kid in his school had to do a '6th grade thesis', which meant a written report and a 10 to 20 minute presentation. Most kids picked sports stars, butterflies, nature studies, etc. He did his on "The Weapons and Martial Arts of the Phillipines." He got an A on the written part. The presentations were done at the community theatre across the street from the school, with all the 4th, 5th and 6th graders present.

The kid before him was doing a presentation on sewing and everyone in the place was half asleep. When his turn came, we set up a 4x8 piece of pegboard covered with bolos, barongs, kris, spears, sticks, staffs, etc. Everyone was now sitting up and paying attention. He gave a little speech, poining at various items on the board and taking some down for a little Karenza (form work),

I then joined him for some two man drills with staffs, single and double sticks, espada Y daga with disarms and finally sumbrada with two dulled out steel machetes that threw sparks when they connected. He got a standing ovation and an A+. The teacher, a female, thought it was wonderful and told us so.

That night the kids went home and of course told thier parents. Three parents got really upset and went to the principal. They didn't want thier kids exposed to this 'awful violence'. They took it to the school board, when the principal didn't get upset enough. The only thing that saved us, was that it had not happened on school property. Otherwise, this A+ demonstration of an indigenous cultural art would have got him suspended.
 
We must be realistic, gentlemen. Society long ago determined, and rightly so, that children are not merely small adults. There are exceptions to every rule, but, in general, children and teens are not notorious for impulse control. Like it or not, knives can be used as weapons as well as as tools. Given that fact, it seems appropriate to me that limitations exist.

I agree with Mr. Mattis that the age of the child should be a factor. I do not see any need for a first or second-grader to carry a blade at all. A sixth-grader with a knife presents a different situation entirely. I don't believe that a student (non-college) of any age would require a blade of over 2.5". Sifus, etc. are cool, but inappropriate for school. We have to draw the line somewhere. Does anyone really want a school full of Battle Mistresses?

Now, having argued for some restrictions, I will state, as an attorney, that I believe that Zero-Tolerance policies are ludicrous. They are an intellectually lazy, cookie-cutter form of "justice." Intent SHOULD matter. We should not be harshly punishing those who have done, or attempted, no harm. These policies teach children the wrong lessons.
 
Originally posted by Normark:
Hey guys....
There wasn't this BS as it is today. We never heard of anyone but bikers being cut or stabbed with a blade.
Click to expand...

I think Eric made a good point. It doesn't matter that he's wrong on this issue, he made a good point.
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First, I think it's clear that zero tolerance for any school is a joke. Find the moron that thought that one up and wipe out his/her gene pool.

But I can see limits on size and type. But I can also see a kid making a big ol' honkin' bowie knife in shop class if he want to. Why not?

A real problem here is that not all schools are created equal. Some schools are more prone to violence than others. This is especially true where there is a lot of gangs. So every shool has to solve their own problems in their own way.

I went to rural schools all my life and everyone had a knife. Can't remember a single incidence of a knife used in a fight or anyone being threatened by a knife. In those days, we brought guns to school and learned to shoot our rifles out behind the school, where a local NRA insructor taught us hunter safety. Guns and knives were not even thought of as weapons. They were everyday tools to cut binder twine or keep the varmints out of the bean field.

Times have changed though. Again, every school has to make their own rules, just so long as it's not the zero tolerance rule which is BS because it says we can't apply reason to the situation.
 
Hey HooDoo...

I Resemble That !! LOL
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Eric,

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Ok, I'll share my opinion on this subject as a high school junior in an extremely small PA school. First, I'll address the idea of treating 'good kids' differently than 'bad kids'. When I was in seventh grade I went to a much larger school than the one I'm in now. It was kind of rough; there were some kids that were obviously troublemakers and those who were not so obvious. At one point I was stiff-armed in the hall by a kid who couldn't have been more than 4' 7". I fell and cracked my head on the corner of a locker. I wasn't injured beyond a little headache, but it could have easily been worse. Later I saw the same kid at the party given for the good kids at the end of the year. Any kids who had gone through the year without recieving a formal detention or any higher form of punishment all got the afternoon off to go have a party at the football field. This kid, who I knew to be a somewhat violent chronic troublemaker, was there because he was very, very careful not to allow teachers to see him misbehaving. I'm just saying this so you realize that who's the good guy or the bad guy isn't always perfectly clear cut. Personally I'm all for allowing students to have small knives; a ladybug or micra can't be used as a weapon even if you want to try. But you don't need a Sifu or a Civilian at school.

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Just because I talk to myself does not make me crazy. Now, when I listen to myself, that makes me crazy.
 
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