What does it take?

B

BladefulArt

Joined
Mar 29, 2008
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I have been considering wanting to be a knife maker as a profession for quiet some time now, , when I first gathered a interest in making knives I immediately was thinking about making it intoa job some day, which I feel I considered that way too quickly and was a mistake, and I still don't know why I developed the sudden interest in it .

After all of that rambling, the purpose of this is simply to ask a rather vaque question as I don't know how to ask it in detail. I've learned how hard it is to make a living out of this, I also heard that many knife makers relie on financial support from their spouses, so..

My questions are: Could anybody please tell me what makes it so hard, is it having to make and sell them year after year , developing a reputation, or what?

Precise absolute dedication and skill, what else does it take to make a living at this?

Also, is there some license you have to get to run a self employed business?

My final question, is this unanswerable? If so then sorry for wasting forum space.

Quiet early for me to be asking these vague questions, but best to learn ahead of time.

Note: I am not considering going full time any time soon as some people assume, this thread is just to better prepare myself before then if I do decide if I really want to.
 
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Do you currently have a regular job, with benefits, etc.? If you do, it might be best to start slowly....working up in baby steps.....learning your craft....slowly developing a reputation....

Eventually, you'll know when and if you could make a living at it. I make fairly nice knives, but I don't make them quickly. I make time consuming mistakes on just about every knife. I'd starve to death if I tried to make a living at it right now.

Sure, my skills would improve more rapidly and quickly if I was full time, but I prefer to slowly work my way to full time. I have only about fifteen years until I can retire....maybe sooner than that.....I have a plan.....that involves learning and developing.....creating goodwill with other knifemakers and knife collectors....so that when I can retire and go full time....I'll have developed a base of customers...and a reputation that is second to none, because I worked hard to achieve that reputation.

Sometimes that development and reputation building hurts...like having failures that end up in a scrap pile...or asking for feedback from a collector, and getting hammered....but if you don't know what your potential customers like.....then you won't be successful.....You'll learn more from one criticism than you will from a trunk full of praise!

It's all about developing a unique style all your own, while appealing to others with that style. Look at the best of the best....fisk, fowler, caffrey, josh smith, bump, raymond richard, and on and on and on....they have unique styles that appeal to others.....I've stopped making some knives, just because the style, although very appealing to me, isn't very appealing to the average knife guy....

You have to make what you like to make and at the same time, make what others like to buy. This isn't always an easy accomplishment to attain. But it's a very worthy goal.

It takes time, hard work and dedication.

I know, I'm rambling....but I do have a certain philosophy about making knives or any kind of art for that matter.

I hope this helped. If not, please excuse the running off on a tangent.
 
I think a person could write a book and still not completely cover your questions. That said I'll try to give a VERY condense "Readers Digest" type response offering my opinions.

1) "Could anybody please tell me what makes it so hard, is it having to make and sell them year after year , developing a reputation, or what?" "Precise absolute dedication and skill, what else does it take to make a living at this?"

Making a great knife, one that the public wants to buy, takes time and a lot of perseverence on the part of the maker. Making a good knife isn't something you learn in a week, or a month, or for many even a year or several years. It is something that you work on and learn to perfect. Some people have a gift and others have to work their butts off to make what would be worth selling/buying.

Once you have gotten to the level of manufacture that people are willing to spend their money on, you have to become a businessman. You have to figure out how to market your product (knives) and balance the costs of materials, time, advertising, travel, shows, etc. vs. the value of your knives. Then you have to make and sell enough quantity to actually survive and pay the bills.

I can't speak for everyone but I think the vast majority of makers just do it because we love doing it. It may be a stretch to compare knife makers to painters but I think the two are similar in many ways. MOST people don't just pick up a paint brush and create a masterpiece, or even something passable that they could sell on a regular basis. They work at it for a long time to perfect their techniques until they are ready to enter the competitive market of sales.

Many people are good at making knives, but are terrible at business. I think I'm okay at making knives and horrible at business. I'm always wanting to cut someone a deal and work something out. That just doesn't work if you are trying to pay bills with what you make.

2) "Also, is there some license you have to get to run a self employed business?"

I believe all states require a business license if your intentions are to create profit. They want their percentage of your sales. This is an area I'm not very familiar with but I do have a business license where I live and they are not difficult to obtain. The state just wants the taxes on what you sell and they will tax you on what you earn.

Your questions are not "unanswerable" it's just that they are complex. I hope I didn't muddy the waters too much.

If you think you will like making knives, try it. Make them. Give them away as gifts. If you can sell some, great, go for it. Before you start trying to decide if this is the life path for you, try it out while you pursue other things. You are still young and have MANY opportunities ahead of you.

Look into some vocational classes in machining, welding, take a knifemaking class, learn forging, blacksmithing, mettalurgy. All of these things will help you become a better knifemaker.

Hope I didn't ramble on too long.
SDS
 
You definitely have to remember that doing something you love to do is a great thing, but sometimes when you're forced to do it to put food on the table, it can take the joy out of it. Many of the full time makers started out part time and spent time developing their skill, building reputations, and making financial/business plans in preparation for full time work. This allowed a somewhat less painful transition to the very tough reality of being a full time maker.

While there are a few makers who have struck it big out there, most makers, even the most revered and well respected, will tell you that you don't become a full time make to become wealthy. And you don't become a full time maker when you're first starting out.

I'm a part time (very part time) maker. I make what I want; I make what I like. I sell a knife here and there for a little bit of profit over materials cost. I do my best to get my customers what they want, but I do it slowly and at my own pace most of the time. I make knives because I love knives. It's a passion and a pursuit I enjoy. I want to make a knife that people look at and comment on quality, fit, and beauty in addition to superb performance. Maybe someday when I retire or go part time, I'll spend more time in the shop pursuing various smith statuses and shows. But in the meantime, I can't possibly comprehend becoming a full time maker. If it's something you really want, make a plan, take your time, and have a way to pay the bills (daily and medical).

God bless you in your pursuits.

--nathan
 
First off if insurance and benefits are a concern its really gonna be tough. I started making knives in the 70's and for years I did shows here and there and still do. Some sort of background in metalwork would be very helpful, for me I make knives cause I can't help it I love them. Now that I do make knives full time (with the support of my wife, collectors, friends, and the internet) yes its great and something I used to occasionally dream about but never really thought would happen. Try making a few, get a feel for the tools and see if you can make enough for the hobby to expand. I really don't know if theres a way to become a recognized Knifemaker without a lot of legwork.
Ken
 
Even after all of the things already mentioned are taken into account, there is only a certain percentage of people that have the dedication required to be self employed. You have to ask yourself if you are one of those few. Self employment means there is no one there cracking the whip to get you to do the work, you have to be your own whip cracker.

Will you have the dedication to get up every morning and spend your day in the shop making knives every day? Will you still have that same dedication in 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years down the road? Will you have the same dedication to push forward, onward and upward, when you are having a crappy week or month and nothing seems to be going right?

If you are a new maker, I would suggest that you make knives as a hobby for now and see if you enjoy making them. Test the waters and see how your knives sell. When you are selling so many knives that you can make a comfortable living from the profit and have a backlog of orders that will last a year or two, that would be the time to consider going full time.

There are many aspects of craftsmanship and business you will have to master to be a sucessful full time maker. Grinding or hammering out a knife is only a small part of it.

Good luck in your endevors.

Brad,
www.AndersonKnives.ca
 
There is a lot of Wisdom in the answers that have been given to your Question BladefulArt.
Not hard numbers but Wisdom!!!!
There is a lot to consider.
 
There's a lot of good advice above. One thing I can't stress enough is that being a knifemaker as a full time job isn't easy, and you won't get rich doing it. I think that one thing I heard from a VERY well respected maker that summed it up best for me was:

"You realize just how much you love knifemaking the first time you put a pair of pliers in your mouth."
Click to expand...

Knifemakers don't get benefits, and there's no union. You won't get rich doing it. You may not even be able to afford to go to the dentist to have a tooth pulled. It's not easy, and you should think long and hard before deciding to make it a vocation. Also (and I'm not trying to sound overly harsh here, but I value honesty given as well as received), get yourself to the point where you're making knives that you believe are on-par with other work you see selling well. Go to shows and look, really look, and what's selling for how much and see if you can at least match the quality. Take your work with you and get critique from makers and see what opinions you get. I know you're new to this and very Gung-Ho, and I'm not trying to squash your enthusiasm in ANY way, but the choice to go full-time isn't one to be taken lightly and you've got to be painfully honest with yourself if you want to have a snowball's chance in hades of making a go of it.

I for one won't ever go full-time. I've already learned the hard way that making a hobby into a job just ruins a good hobby for me. I'll make knives at my own pace, on my own time, and if people want to buy them, great. If not, I'll give them away.

Now, go make some more knives! This is too much talking and not enough knifemaking! :D

-d
 
Well, I have had pliers and other tools in my mouth. I will be getting dentures in the next few years. I am listing my house and stuff for sale so I can move back to the area I grew up and have everything paid for. I have most all the tools I want. I have hundreds of lbs of steel. I can always work my current trade for short periods if I start to starve. I am not infected with the "gotta haves". This is a very prevalent sickness in our society. Gotta have a new SUV, Gotta have a hot tub, gotta have a big house, gota have a big boat, gotta have a fancy camper, gotta have a whatever the hell the everyone else has. I am getting more and more ready to jump off the race track.
 
Great Thread....and great replies....all filled with wisdom!

I will echo the inputs on everything, with emphasis on the benefits being a big consideration....especially if you have a family.

I was a part time maker for over 20 years. My full time job being the US Air Force. At about my 10 year mark, I realized that I was half way to retirement, and that if I stuck it out, I would have health insurance, and the other benefits that would allow me to be a full time maker. By my 17 year mark, the Air Force was getting in the way of my Knifemaking. At my 20 year mark, I was a little skiddish about leaving that "security blanket" that the military career provides, and spent another 2 years making sure that I had all my ducks in line before retiring. At 22 years, 6 months, I retired from the Air Force, and literally took off my uniform one day, and walked into my shop the next day as a full time knifemaker.

Since then, the one resounding truth that I've come to understand is this: Purchasing a custom knife is a luxury to most folks. In general, our sales are based on others' disposable income. If they do not have it, then we certainly will not get any of it! What I'm saying is that it's a very difficult thing to have a steady, predicatable income as a knifemaker. That means that if you have monthly payments/bills, that add up to a certain amount, and you rely on knives as a soul source of income, then your going to experience A LOT of anxiety each and every month until your specific income needs are met. A situation like that will quickly take the joy out of it.

If your going to make the move to full time, I would encourage you to make yourself a master plan, pay off all the bills you can, and set yourself and your family up on a minimal budget that you can stick to/live with.
Also, while your working on this plan, it's the right time to gather/purchase ALL the tools you feel your going to need, becasue once you go full time, all too often the money is not there for them.
Finally, keep in mind that there is a lot of overhead for a knifemaker. Not just the utilities, but we have a great deal of consumables associated with what we do. Belts, steel, handle material, glues, sandpaper, and on and on. Often times for me, grinding belts alone represent about $300 per month! It's certainly not an impossible move to make, but it does require thought, planning, and a level of courage on the individual's part.
 
After building our house, shop and becoming debt free in 1991, I went fulltime and have been ever since. I started making and selling knives in the $25 to $50 range. No other income, I even pay my wife a salary. She built and takes care of our web site and does all the books.

This isn't easy but beans were cheap in the 90s'. Debt free is the key for us ('pay as you go or don't go').

A long time ago, a knife dealer told me (as he passed on my knives)...."your going to have a long rough road ahead of you"....Well, it was rough at times but it has smoothed out pretty good. It takes 15 - 20 years or more, to become an 'overnight success' :D

Fulltime knife making is good, if you like to work 6 or 7 days a week and with little or no vacation (this is of course, if you can live without new cars and heath insurance) :)

Precise absolute dedication and skill, what else does it take to make a living at this??
Click to expand...
This is really all it takes but with a little business sense thrown in

Also, is there some license you have to get to run a self employed business?
Click to expand...
No license needed in my state, others may require one
 
one tip business-wise.
Go to legalzoom and setup an LLC.
This will protect your personal assets,
and be helpful when you go to get a business license
and tax number.
Your suppliers might give you a business account as well.
Our local university's small business dept.
and our local BBB Better Business Bureau were great resources
when my wife started a small business
 
hi yall, well as most of you know im still very new. i have my basement and all the basic tools/machines. I first started this/ thought about it--i really wanted to learn to make knives without even thinking what i would do with them. I asked myself at some point if i would like to be a full time knife maker-- the answer is NO. as mentioned above--if i had to depend on livelyhood by making knives it would end up being a job--and i feel it would take some pleasyre away. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION--and dont forget im still a toddler as far as knife making is concerned. However i do see myself honing my skills and want to follow the ABS program ( because i like some structure or a base in wich to lean on)and in about 20 or so years, retire and make knives part time.I may sell a knife or 2 here and there as i learn though. Its kinda odd to enter bladeforum where everyone knows how new you are,then in time actually put a knife up for sale. I guess thats how we learn and it is good to have this forum to give constructive feedback no matter how bad it is. Im i steeling this thread--im babbling --sorry---thanks mark
 
All good and very helpful posts, but I did notice that a few of you was thinking I was thinking about going full time right away. About 2-3 weeks after I started learning about the trade, I started considering it just as a hobby. This thread is just for my future reference and I feel that its best to learn way ahead of time.

Scott, I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle, I plan to. Vocational training I recently finished is worth about 1 yr of experience, so that should help, not by much though.
 
BladefulArt said:
All good and very helpful posts, but I did notice that a few of you was thinking I was thinking about going full time right away. About 2-3 weeks after I started learning about the trade, I started considering it just as a hobby. This thread is just for my future reference and I feel that its best to learn way ahead of time.

Scott, I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle, I plan to. Vocational training I recently finished is worth about 1 yr of experience, so that should help, not by much though.
Click to expand...

The fact that you're only 17 is a very good thing. It means that you probably don't have many bad habits to unlearn. I would suggest that you contact Josh Smith and look for advice from him. Josh started when he was 11 years old, if my memory serves me correctly. He is now a world renowned and recognized full time maker. I've not personally met Josh yet, but, I've heard nothing but positives about him, his family and his generosity.

If you do contact Josh, I would suggest that you have a list of questions ready ahead of time, as not to take up too much of his time (10 minutes maximum). Time for a full time maker is money. I'm sure that he'd give you a few minutes of his time to help you get your head around a good starting plan.

When I started making knives I already had nearly 10 years of seniority at the company I worked at with good benefits. I now have 27 years with that company, and I'm still a part time knifemaker. So, as far as how to advance to full time successfully, I'm not the person to ask.

The reason I suggest Josh, is because he was young when he started, and has succeeded and advanced. Make sure to be polite, as you have been here in this thread, and I think you'll learn quite a bit from him in a short period of time. You can find Josh's contact information at www.joshsmithknives.com.

My apologies to Josh in advance for volunteering him. Forgive me Josh!

Good Luck!
 
Don, Last I knew all businesses in Texas county had to have a State Tax Registration. The town of Success may not require a business license, but the county and state have it's own set of requirements.

BladefulArt,
Becoming a full time maker is a lot of hard work...and hard knocks.
It requires dedication, planning, skill, being a known maker,and lots of hard work.

I would recommend taking all the classes you can to learn metal working skills as well as business skills ( I know you are not a fan of schooling, but there are some things that you have to study to learn well.). Many failed businesses went under not as a result of poor workmanship, but as a result of poor business operation. We have a local Chef who is outstanding. He has operated about eight primo restaurants over the last 30 years...all of them ending up bankrupt. He is undoubtedly the finest Chef in the area...he is also undoubtedly the worst businessman in town,too.

Make your knives for fun, and perfect your skills. Start with local shows, and after building up a local clientèle, do some regional shows. Be sure to enter your knives in the show judging competitions. Having awards will help attest to your knives desirability. Once you have a larger customer base, you will be able to decide what level of day job/ knife job works for you.

The best advice I have ever hear from a knife maker came from Bill Moran. A newer maker asked Bill if he had any advice for a person who was thinking of becoming a knifemaker. Bill smiled and said, " Keep your day job!".

Now,For the hard numbers...
Let's say you make a nice knife and sell it for twice what you have in it ( counting consumables, overhead,etc.) and the average knife you have sells for $100 ( that is $50 profit). If you want to make a gross income of $30,000 a year, you have to sell 600 knives a year.....every year. That works out to twelve knives a week...every week. From that you have to pay all your taxes, living expenses, rent, car payments, insurance, and save for retirement and hard times. As you can see it is a daunting task.

Stacy
 
It's tough. Many full-time makers have said that the knifemaking is the easy part of the job -- the business side is what pulls you down. I'm only about a year into being full-time and it isn't easy.

You've got to figure that your overhead is sometimes about half of what you make. Then you've got to take out 20-25 percent to put back for taxes. After that; you've got your insurance (medical and business) and all the stuff others have mentioned.

If you want to do it, start doing it on the side and work on making quality blades, then worry about the rest down the road. :)
 
bladsmth said:
Don, Last I knew all businesses in Texas county had to have a State Tax Registration. The town of Success may not require a business license, but the county and state have it's own set of requirements.
Click to expand...

Stacy, I'm not a business, just self-employed and don't collect sales tax. I have a good tax lady who with my wife, takes care of all the state and federal requirements. It can be very simple or complicated, I chose the former :)
 
BladefulArt said:
All good and very helpful posts, but I did notice that a few of you was thinking I was thinking about going full time right away. About 2-3 weeks after I started learning about the trade, I started considering it just as a hobby. This thread is just for my future reference and I feel that its best to learn way ahead of time.

Scott, I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle, I plan to. Vocational training I recently finished is worth about 1 yr of experience, so that should help, not by much though.
Click to expand...

It sounds to me like you are 17 years old, live with your parents and have no car or money.
Big dreamer aren't you??
Nothing wrong with that. I am a dreamer and I will be till the day that I die, but I have to deal in realities also.


1- Do you have tools and equipment to make knives?
2- Do you have permanent shop space for all of the tools and supplies required to make knives?
3- How are you going to pay for all of this stuff??
4- Have you finished high school?

I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle

This quote concerns me
Why don't you have a job?
How are you going to save up unless you have a job?
Why do you have to persuade your parents to save up to buy you a car?

If you answer NO to questions 1 & 2 you are in bad shape from the start.
Unless you can get all of this stuff for free, you will need to get a job first then walk or catch a ride to work until you can save up some money to get a car. You will have to make lot's of sacrifices. It could take some time to get all of the basic equipment that you need ,but it will not just fall in your lap.

I don't know anything about your parents or their financial situation, but if they have the means to help you get started, you need to have a sit down with them and ask for their help.
If you have shop equipment, you need start working on making anything to impress the hell out of them or get a job and work your butt off to show them you can do this and that you have a work ethic to make it work.

Making knives by the stock removal method will require some basic tools to get started.
Forging knives will require a few more heavy and expensive tools to get started properly. It can be done inexpensively, but good quality tools will make the learning curve much easier and you can concentrate on establishing a good foundation for your career in knife making instead of fighting crappy equipment that is not adequate.

Lot's of good info here so far, but first you need to step away from the computer a bit and get that job, car and then get some good knife making tools. After that, the sky is the limit.

I ran across this quote from Muhhamad Ali once and it stuck in my head.
" The will must be stronger than the skill"

BB
 
BladefulArt said:
All good and very helpful posts, but I did notice that a few of you was thinking I was thinking about going full time right away. About 2-3 weeks after I started learning about the trade, I started considering it just as a hobby. This thread is just for my future reference and I feel that its best to learn way ahead of time.

Scott, I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle, I plan to. Vocational training I recently finished is worth about 1 yr of experience, so that should help, not by much though.
Click to expand...

It sounds to me like you are 17 years old, live with your parents and have no car or money.
Big dreamer aren't you??
Nothing wrong with that. I am a dreamer and I will be till the day that I die, but I have to deal in realities also.


1- Do you have tools and equipment to make knives?
2- Do you have permanent shop space for all of the tools and supplies required to make knives?
3- How are you going to pay for all of this stuff??
4- Have you finished high school?

I currently don't have a job or a way to get to one, but as soon as I save up or persuade my parents to save up for a used vehicle

This quote concerns me
Why don't you have a job?
How are you going to save up unless you have a job?
Why do you have to persuade your parents to save up to buy you a car?

If you answer NO to questions 1 & 2 you are in bad shape from the start.
Unless you can get all of this stuff for free, you will need to get a job first then walk or catch a ride to work until you can save up some money to get a car. You will have to make lot's of sacrifices. It could take some time to get all of the basic equipment that you need ,but it will not just fall in your lap.

I don't know anything about your parents or their financial situation, but if they have the means to help you get started, you need to have a sit down with them and ask for their help.
If you have shop equipment, you need start working on making anything to impress the hell out of them or get a job and work your butt off to show them you can do this and that you have a work ethic to make it work.

Making knives by the stock removal method will require some basic tools to get started.
Forging knives will require a few more heavy and expensive tools to get started properly. It can be done inexpensively, but good quality tools will make the learning curve much easier and you can concentrate on establishing a good foundation for your career in knife making instead of fighting crappy equipment that is not adequate.

Lot's of good info here so far, but first you need to step away from the computer a bit and get that job, car and then get some good knife making tools. After that, the sky is the limit.

I ran across this quote from Muhammad Ali once and it stuck in my head.
" The will must be stronger than the skill"

BB
 
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