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What exactly is boker's high carbon stainless steel?
- Thread starter TheChunk91
- Start date
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- Jul 30, 2006
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Boker uses a lot of different alloys on their various styles of knives. I have several German-made traditional Boker knives with 440C alloy. But, those are marked 440C on the blade.
If memory serves, the generic "high carbon stainless" used on their German-made pocket knives is Krup 4116. It is very similar to 420HC with 0.45% Carbon and 15% Chromium. According to their steel web page Boker runs that alloy at 55-56HRC
https://www.boker.de/us/blade-steel.html
Say Heah Karting, I found out it was 440a, I bought it at [a non-BF member dealer], and that Joker sold it to me saying it was 440c. Infact it was listed on their site as 440c. Grrrrrrrr I hate that.
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- Joined
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By definition, 'high carbon steel' simply means it's got at least 0.4%-0.5% carbon or more; this compares to steels like 420HC and other simple cutlery from Victorinox, Boker, Wusthof, etc. Basically, it's just enough to make decently hardenable cutlery, i.e., knives that can be heat-treated to take and hold a sharp cutting edge within minimally realistic expectations. Other than simple kitchen flatware like true 'butter knives' (which are low- or very low carbon), most knives with sharpened edges will meet that standard anyway; some just barely.
Technically, it should be 0.5% or higher to be called 'high carbon' steel, according to strictest steel industry definition. But more widely, some makers will 'fudge' the labelling a bit, like so-called '420HC' ('HC' implying high carbon, having more than regular '420' steel), though it has slightly less carbon than meets the definition, at around 0.45%. Other makers can still make reasonably sharpenable knives with carbon content down around 0.35%, which would be at the low end of the 'medium-carbon steel' definition.
David
Last edited:
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- May 9, 2010
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thanks for the clarification! i have a few schatt and morgans and some of them dont explicitly state what steel was used unlike the newer ones which go CPM or ATS and what not. Apparently these were 420HC or something like that. I can appreciate a good steel, but I dont think at this current moment I can tell you exactly what knife is what just by cutting with it
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2019
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- 1
Upon inquiry, a customer service rep from said, "this particular model does use a 440A high carbon stainless steel for the blade." I also understand from information in another thread that these knives are allegedly assembled in Germany from Chinese produced parts, leading me to suspect that this may not in fact be 440A at all, but a Chinese equivalent and one of the CR series Steels.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2015
- Messages
- 187
Hen and Rooster does the same thing for some of their knives. Knives are often stamped "Germany" and assembled in Germany out of Chinese manufactured parts
My first post... I am shopping for a pocket user, the first in ... gads! ... I can't remember how long. May have been a Buck ... 301-similar ... when my 41 year old son was 5, maybe. It was lost not too long afterwards. There have been fits and starts since, but nothing as purpose specific as an "easy to carry" in my jeans. I found this thread while searching for typical blade steels made in the current USA, or well made Western manufacture offerings.
My latest acquisitions, the "fit/start" pieces, was a slippery slip-lock Queen Oar Carver in pretty horrid shape for using; and then, its sibling a locking Oar that was in horrible as-made, condition. I keep the second knife open because a pair of pliers is required to open the blade. Both of these knives also have pm-D2 blades that are nearly impossible to sharpen and fold over edges upon touching wood. I'll pass on Queen. Oh, wait! They are out of business.
So far I have found three decent traditional pocket knife manufacturers. Case and Buck in the USA and; Boker out of Solingen, Germany. All of these names offer Chinese knockoffs. I have no interest in the Asian sourced item, or parts assembled elsewhere. Someone might throw in Great Eastern Cutlery, but (GEC) doesn't make users and I don't care about collector criteria, which GEC must cater to. I'm not sure GEC is still around now, in April 2022.
Choosing the Knife Companion--
As noted in the lead-in, I am seeking a non-stainless traditional pocket knife steel. That is not an easy accomplishment. Case has some. Boker (Solingen) has one (out of stock) that fits the criteria I have. Buck has none. My early 110 is a solid member of Buck, but not a pocket carry, nor non-stainless. Even Buck defers to its 420-HC "approaching" carbon steel (non-stainless) in edge and hardness capabilities. As noted in previous posts, the home manufactories steels for these brands have not changed.
To fit in my pocket requires a knife easy to lose. That means length is 3" to 3.5", with two blades and maybe a third. Substance is important. Boker generally uses thicker steel and liners than the American products. But I have really narrowed my criteria so I can only critique the samples I have to choose from, then return all but one, maybe two.
I currently have six knives and expect two more, only one of which fits the criteria so far. Sort of. They are two Boker Barlows; one is a single blade, I think C75. The other is the traditional 2-blade but in Stainless.
The knife needs to fit my hand. One is a Case Peanut, under three inches. It's too small. The criteria were modified to require full palm use. Three fingers was not enough.
Then, they can grow to be too big. But big includes blade quantity too. I have a vintage one-blade Tina 640/10 worn out from pruning/grafting--roses, I think--and the blade configuration is not amenable to typical whittling. The length at 3-7/8" is too long. I really wanted it to fill the pocket carry role. As a vintage store capture, Tina is the cheapest knife I have. New, it would be the costliest.
All the knives over 3.5" are long. So, the one Boker Congress 4-blade whittler, in non-stainless steel, is too long and too big. However, I really want it even though it will be modified. Probably my costliest knife to date, and it would join the current record holders that were also modified. Someone mentioned Hen and Rooster. I also have that in Congress whittler copy, but it is a really sad tool in fit, finish, and general construction quality.
Safety is a bigger concern than I originally expected. The ideal blade for me is the Case Pen, or the Buck 301. I wrote off the Buck in the first moments of my search. Mine was a nice tool, what I remember, but I think the black scales made it easy to lose and miss in a hectic moment. The Case 32087 CV, however, is a weak slip joint. I have tried 4 and will have an additional two to test later tonite. I know Case can make a knife with half and full snap stops. Two peanuts I looked at, one I have, work beautifully. The final safety feature is what I call Rambo Syndrome. Most people will not be intimidated when I pull out a three-inch pocket knife. I am not interested in looking for or expecting a rabid deer, or rabid Rambo to protect myself by wearing a bear sticker. I know I can do pretty well with two inches. The "Pen" just requires a careful hand. It is dainty.
Conclusion.
In retrospect, my preference for non-stainless has been seriously battered on another forum. For any reasonable choice to be made, it should not be based on type of steel. They all are about the same in the modest pocket folding category. The choice really needs to reflect the user's comfort in carry, use, and social benefit.
My latest acquisitions, the "fit/start" pieces, was a slippery slip-lock Queen Oar Carver in pretty horrid shape for using; and then, its sibling a locking Oar that was in horrible as-made, condition. I keep the second knife open because a pair of pliers is required to open the blade. Both of these knives also have pm-D2 blades that are nearly impossible to sharpen and fold over edges upon touching wood. I'll pass on Queen. Oh, wait! They are out of business.
So far I have found three decent traditional pocket knife manufacturers. Case and Buck in the USA and; Boker out of Solingen, Germany. All of these names offer Chinese knockoffs. I have no interest in the Asian sourced item, or parts assembled elsewhere. Someone might throw in Great Eastern Cutlery, but (GEC) doesn't make users and I don't care about collector criteria, which GEC must cater to. I'm not sure GEC is still around now, in April 2022.
Choosing the Knife Companion--
As noted in the lead-in, I am seeking a non-stainless traditional pocket knife steel. That is not an easy accomplishment. Case has some. Boker (Solingen) has one (out of stock) that fits the criteria I have. Buck has none. My early 110 is a solid member of Buck, but not a pocket carry, nor non-stainless. Even Buck defers to its 420-HC "approaching" carbon steel (non-stainless) in edge and hardness capabilities. As noted in previous posts, the home manufactories steels for these brands have not changed.
To fit in my pocket requires a knife easy to lose. That means length is 3" to 3.5", with two blades and maybe a third. Substance is important. Boker generally uses thicker steel and liners than the American products. But I have really narrowed my criteria so I can only critique the samples I have to choose from, then return all but one, maybe two.
I currently have six knives and expect two more, only one of which fits the criteria so far. Sort of. They are two Boker Barlows; one is a single blade, I think C75. The other is the traditional 2-blade but in Stainless.
The knife needs to fit my hand. One is a Case Peanut, under three inches. It's too small. The criteria were modified to require full palm use. Three fingers was not enough.
Then, they can grow to be too big. But big includes blade quantity too. I have a vintage one-blade Tina 640/10 worn out from pruning/grafting--roses, I think--and the blade configuration is not amenable to typical whittling. The length at 3-7/8" is too long. I really wanted it to fill the pocket carry role. As a vintage store capture, Tina is the cheapest knife I have. New, it would be the costliest.
All the knives over 3.5" are long. So, the one Boker Congress 4-blade whittler, in non-stainless steel, is too long and too big. However, I really want it even though it will be modified. Probably my costliest knife to date, and it would join the current record holders that were also modified. Someone mentioned Hen and Rooster. I also have that in Congress whittler copy, but it is a really sad tool in fit, finish, and general construction quality.
Safety is a bigger concern than I originally expected. The ideal blade for me is the Case Pen, or the Buck 301. I wrote off the Buck in the first moments of my search. Mine was a nice tool, what I remember, but I think the black scales made it easy to lose and miss in a hectic moment. The Case 32087 CV, however, is a weak slip joint. I have tried 4 and will have an additional two to test later tonite. I know Case can make a knife with half and full snap stops. Two peanuts I looked at, one I have, work beautifully. The final safety feature is what I call Rambo Syndrome. Most people will not be intimidated when I pull out a three-inch pocket knife. I am not interested in looking for or expecting a rabid deer, or rabid Rambo to protect myself by wearing a bear sticker. I know I can do pretty well with two inches. The "Pen" just requires a careful hand. It is dainty.
Conclusion.
In retrospect, my preference for non-stainless has been seriously battered on another forum. For any reasonable choice to be made, it should not be based on type of steel. They all are about the same in the modest pocket folding category. The choice really needs to reflect the user's comfort in carry, use, and social benefit.
You should start a new thread for this, and give it a title that indicates that you need help finding a new knife. I’m sure you will get some good suggestions.
dantzk8
Basic Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,933
GEC makes users. Here are one Tidioute and four Farm & Field. 1095 and O1 steels. From 3,5" to 4" long. All users.
I'm not a collector, very picky about my tools.
The problem with GEC knives is they are very hard to get nowadays.
Dan.
Hi, Tom and Dan- Thanks for your help.
I chose to post in this thread because you good folks addressed my concerns, albeit several years old: blade steel for the particular brands I was focusing toward. In one thread! Also, I see a need to research further the 3.5 to 4-inch knife range. For me to be comfortable with a constant carry pocket knife, it needs to be smaller than is practical for most use.
I am choosing the Case Pen for every day carry. The rest, ten or so, will be returned. The piece I like the most, a Boker fake turtle shell, fits Dan's Tidioute (top knife) outline exactly. I'm just not thrilled by the stainless steel or potential provenance.
I will dig into the archives or post a more specific query for a 3.5 to 4-inch selection soon.
I chose to post in this thread because you good folks addressed my concerns, albeit several years old: blade steel for the particular brands I was focusing toward. In one thread! Also, I see a need to research further the 3.5 to 4-inch knife range. For me to be comfortable with a constant carry pocket knife, it needs to be smaller than is practical for most use.
I am choosing the Case Pen for every day carry. The rest, ten or so, will be returned. The piece I like the most, a Boker fake turtle shell, fits Dan's Tidioute (top knife) outline exactly. I'm just not thrilled by the stainless steel or potential provenance.
I will dig into the archives or post a more specific query for a 3.5 to 4-inch selection soon.
Damn I bought an outsourced one