What happens when a lockbar migrates completely to the other side?

DanR217

DanR217

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I (think I) understand why a lockbar doesn't need to completely engage the tang, but my question is what would happen if the lockbar migrated completely to the inside, up against the opposite side handle? Would the integrity of the lock-up be compromised in any way? I'm sorry if this topic has already been covered, I tried a search for it but found no results. I do have a habit of looking right past things without seeing them...
 
Have you taken the knife apart for cleaning etc.? Has the lockbar always traveled that far? If it has no blade play when locked you should be OK but the lockbar might have worn, so it will loose its lock-up strength and safety if it wears any more. If the knife has been taken apart it could mean that you can adjust the sides of the knife slightly to get a earlier lock-up.
 
It hasn't gone all the way yet, but it's definitely over halfway through the tang. I'm just wondering what would happen if it did get that far? It's a frame-lock, how would I adjust it?
 
The knife is trash at that point.. It'll lock up but will have a lot of blade play... I have yet to see that happen but I'm sure theoretically it can after ALOT of use


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I have never done it myself, but can't you adjust or change the pivot pin in order to get the lock to engage earlier?
 
AmosPaul said:
I have never done it myself, but can't you adjust or change the pivot pin in order to get the lock to engage earlier?
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Rotate the stop pin and it should lock up slightly earlier. Lock wear is usually due to stop pin wear (flattened area of contact), not the actual lock itself.

DanR217 said:
I (think I) understand why a lockbar doesn't need to completely engage the tang, but my question is what would happen if the lockbar migrated completely to the inside, up against the opposite side handle? Would the integrity of the lock-up be compromised in any way? I'm sorry if this topic has already been covered, I tried a search for it but found no results. I do have a habit of looking right past things without seeing them...
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Your knife may have worked itself into a sweet spot (once the titanium work-hardens) and shouldn't deviate much from that position. A lot of people get hung up on lock percentage, and each knife maker or manufacturer will have differing opinions on lock engagement, but realistically, if the blade tang geometry is correct, the thing could lockup at 95% and still be just fine.
 
Heespharm said:
The knife is trash at that point.. It'll lock up but will have a lot of blade play... I have yet to see that happen but I'm sure theoretically it can after ALOT of use
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Pick up a NEW CRK Sebenza sometime.
Chris Reeves DESIGNS them to lock up NEW at about 80% for max strength. During yrs of use, it is unlikely that HIS lockbar will move much at all.
I've had lots of Sebbies and Zaans.

Some knives, mostly less expensive ones, might migrate somewhat. Usually those folks will bend the lockbar slightly in order to bring the contact point further back to the "left."
 
Sonnydaze said:
Pick up a NEW CRK Sebenza sometime.
Chris Reeves DESIGNS them to lock up NEW at about 80% for max strength. During yrs of use, it is unlikely that HIS lockbar will move much at all.
I've had lots of Sebbies and Zaans.

Some knives, mostly less expensive ones, might migrate somewhat. Usually those folks will bend the lockbar slightly in order to bring the contact point further back to the "left."
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Cool didn't know that but if it's all the way to the other scale is it still salvageable?


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symphonyincminor said:
Rotate the stop pin and it should lock up slightly earlier. Lock wear is usually due to stop pin wear (flattened area of contact), not the actual lock itself.



Your knife may have worked itself into a sweet spot (once the titanium work-hardens) and shouldn't deviate much from that position. A lot of people get hung up on lock percentage, and each knife maker or manufacturer will have differing opinions on lock engagement, but realistically, if the blade tang geometry is correct, the thing could lockup at 95% and still be just fine.
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That is the first thing I would check. Otherwise you are better off sending it to the maker/manufacturer for repairs.
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
That is the first thing I would check. Otherwise you are better off sending it to the maker/manufacturer for repairs.
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The Hinderer team contacted me this morning, "We do not adjust the lock up, we actually can't lengthen the lock bar to give you more. 50% is dead on where Rick likes it, as long as it locks up tight you are good to go." It's over half, probably approaching 75%. I didn't think it was an issue of lengthening the lock bar...? Without the Hinderer tool I can't take the knife apart to adjust the stop pin and with their whole "big boy rules" about stripping fasteners makes me not want to try and take it apart, sometimes fasteners are wrenched down so tight by the manufacturers they get stuck and with such little surface area, stripping happens. It locks up tight now, I just don't see it getting better considering titanium is softer than S35VN.

So the knife will be trashed once the lock bar reaches the other side? I've only ever had one knife that migrated like this, an Emerson, and they had me send it in and took care of it right away, no problem.
 
DanR217 said:
The Hinderer team contacted me this morning, "We do not adjust the lock up, we actually can't lengthen the lock bar to give you more. 50% is dead on where Rick likes it, as long as it locks up tight you are good to go." It's over half, probably approaching 75%. I didn't think it was an issue of lengthening the lock bar...? Without the Hinderer tool I can't take the knife apart to adjust the stop pin and with their whole "big boy rules" about stripping fasteners makes me not want to try and take it apart, sometimes fasteners are wrenched down so tight by the manufacturers they get stuck and with such little surface area, stripping happens. It locks up tight now, I just don't see it getting better considering titanium is softer than S35VN.

So the knife will be trashed once the lock bar reaches the other side? I've only ever had one knife that migrated like this, an Emerson, and they had me send it in and took care of it right away, no problem.
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Did it start a lot earlier and wear to 50% or was it always at 50%?

Depending on the way your blade tang was cut + the amount of tension on the Lock bar you may get play as it passes a certain point (early Striders) or nothing will happen because the geometry of the tang + the tension was designed for a 50% lock-up + some wear (see CRK)

If it moves all the way over to the scale, well then you got super solid lock up!
As long as the tension is good, the only issue will be releasing the lock bar....
 
I got a hold of an Emerson CQC-7 a while back and thrashed it around a bit. The lock-bar gradually moved its way completely over to the liner on the opposite side of the knife. At this point, the blade had significant play in every direction and tightening the pivot did not mediate any such freedom of movement. However, under no circumstances did the blade close on its own over the time that it was being used. I think that titanium has a large amount of elasticity compared to steel and because of this it tends to bend more easily.

I also have experience using a Fallkniven gentleman's pocket knife - also a liner lock. The Fallkniven, while costing nearly $100 more than the Emerson, completely failed once the lock-bar became removed from direct contact with the blade tang. It was then so weak that it could be forced closed with my hands.

I have yet to use a knife with a frame lock, but thought I'd share my perspective anyhow.
 
I just read a comment about the ZT 0450 where the guy returned it because he felt a design flaw exists at the lockbar as it was so easily pressed to the other scale. I'm guessing he has no faith in the bar itself due to this.

I have a ZT 0450 and never noticed as I never pressed on the bar deliberately, but it most certainly does easily push to where the steel insert touches the other scale. The insert sits almost at 100% under the tang when touching the scale. Blade is still tight even at this point.

I just thought that was normal for this knife. The lockbar can't be easily pushed over on a Dice though.

So ZT titanium is kinda soft I guess.
 
A lockbar provides upward pressure against the front of the blade tang, pushing it against a stop pin. This pressure vs. resistance is what keeps the blade tight in the open position.

As long as the lock bar is providing that pressure to the tang, it'll be fine. Regardless of what percentage it locks up at. If it's able to migrate clear to the other scale without making firm contact with the tang you'll have vertical play in the blade, but I wouldn't call it trash. The lock bar will still keep the blade from closing.

The reason the folks at Hinderer don't do lockup is because to add that upward pressure earlier on the tang either the blade tang has to get closer to the bar or the bar has to get closer to the tang. Neither are really possible without simply replacing something.

I suppose it could be accomplished with a taller steel insert, assuming it has an insert, or by substituting and thicker stop pin, forcing the blade to sit slightly farther forward.

Perhaps someone in the custom shop could turn a larger for you?
 
I wouldn't stress about it. You have a hinderer and from my experience and what I see and read on here, I've never seen any issues regarding lock up with a hinderer. It's going to take years for it to travel across the tang so you have plenty of life on that knife. Enjoy it!

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I have an old Gerber Covert Folder, the first generation made with ATS-34, double thumb stud, 3 3/4" spear point blade, that I bought used 5 or 6 years ago. The lock bar has always traveled all the way to the right. The blade isn't loose, no play in any direction. It's been my EDC for 5 or 6 years now. I've used that knife HARD, and never had any trouble. It holds a good edge, and isn't too hard to restore the edge, as long as I don't let it get too dull.

Perhaps ignorance was bliss, but I plan to continue using that knife, until I lose or break it. I had an identical one before that, that I carried for about 10 years. I sharpened it so may times, the serrations were just bumps on the blade. I finally lost it. I don't think the locking bar traveled all the way to the right, as my current one does. I'm not going to trash a $100+ knife, that I paid $50 for, until I have trouble with it.
 
I have read in this forum, many times, where folks have slightly tweaked the lockbar in order to bring the contact point back to the left. Various YT videos also; one video by a very well-known knife-guy, from a couple of yrs ago, who now has his own company...IIRC. He demonstrated it on a Sebenza.
I have NOT done this; never had a knife with the lockbar further over than 80% or so. Cannot recommend it as no experience doing it myself.
 
I can tell you from experience, my own, and what I witnessed, when the lock of a liner lock or a frame lock travels over to the far side. In such a case, you will get blade play. If you put any stress on the blade it will often collapse, not so far as to cut you (though it has happened to some), but just enough for the blade to drop and the lock get wedged in such a way the knife will no longer close. The knife is basically unsafe.
 
The very first 'modern' liner locking knife I ever bought, a medium-sized Kershaw 'Liner Action' had a liner lock that traveled all the way to the opposite side from day one, but it never developed any blade play. I suspect it was designed that way. I later bought a large version, and much later a small version, before they were discontinued. All three had liners that traveled all the way to the opposite side from the start, but they never developed blade play. It was an unusual design, different from other liner locks I've since owned, as you needed to exert first side pressure then outward pressure to open the blade; then it would 'fly open' very quickly. Its handle also was not an open frame like most other liner locks are.

The only liner lock I've owned in which the liner would 'jump' with hand pressure on the back of the blade is an Emerson CQC7-A. And that liner never traveled all the way across, but the blade tang mating surface is ground very steeply.

IMO, the best liner lock design I have is on the Spyderco Military. The blade tang mating surface is a gradual, concave curve, which I suspect makes an accidental slip-off, as well as the liner traveling all the way over, far less likely.

Jim
 
DanR217 said:
.What happens when a lockbar migrates completely to the other side?
Click to expand...
The tectonic plates will separate, creating giant pyroclastic vortexes that will scour the earth's surface of all living matter. The oceans will boil, releasing a steam cloud that will block all sunlight and trigger the next ice age.

Or.....you may develop some vertical blade play...
 
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