What have I been up to? Well, I'll tell you anway.

[Steven65]

Beautiful work Salem. I love your recurve blades.

 

[Salem Straub]

Ok, here’s the blade after some 220 grit paper. All flat and everything massaged out to more precise lines and shapes.

I clayed it…

And then Iwent for the quench. I was playing the slow-‘n-low-heating game, pipe muffle in the forge and pumping the blade a lot, fighting the challenge of heavily dissimilar geometry between the bolster, forte, and tip areas. A magnet was in my hand at all times, and the lights by the forge turned off. And… boom, into the Parks 50 and agitating vertically.
Much of the clay broke off in the quench, and the rest was crumbled off by hand with my oil towel.
I took it over to the bench and did a quick scrub with 220 paper on both sides, then a quick dip into ferric to get an idea of what had happened.
The line ended up a little lower than I’d planned. It does cover the entire edge, and is adequately wide for duty. There are a couple spots where it’s hard to see exactly what’s going on with the habuchi.

I’m a little conflicted about it.
On one hand, I’d have liked it to be higher.
On the other hand, every hamon quench is a surprise, and some that I almost redid but ended up polishing have turned out quite well indeed. Warpage was minimal if any here, especially with the edge at about .030 going in. For a blade type such as this, a lower line is traditional and appropriate, given that the blade will need to withstand substantial shock in use.
Also, from what I can see, the activity looks promising.
So, I put it in the oven at 425. When I’m done tempering, I’ll sand it completely clean, maybe even up to 400, and have another check etch to make sure it’s a keeper. As long as the tip is fully hardened (hard to see) I’ll keep it.
What do you guys think?

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Dude. A person with your forging skills is not supposed to have that kind grinding skills too. That's not fair.


Sweet design. :thumbup:

 

[Salem Straub]

Thanks a lot Nathan! I try in my own way, although it's quite different than your excellent approach...

Anyway, after tempering I sanded totally clean to 220 again. At this stage it was plain with no etch that, although the hamon showed some very cool things happening, the tip was not fully hardened for the last 1/2 inch.

I'm claying up again right now. A little higher, a little different, less mass of clay at the heel and at the tip. The clip has been scraped off but for the wash layer. I'll be turning ALL the lights off this time while heating as I would have seen the tip color was wrong before had I done that.

Wish me luck! I'll post results tonight most likely.

 

[Salem Straub]

Well, second attempt unsatisfactory. This blade is really making me dance a tune to its geometry. I got full hardening down the edge, but a very low line overall. Even better crazy activity this time. I stared at it and wished really hard that I could just move that whole habuchi 3/8" up the blade and keep it.

Trying a third time tonight, as I need the shop dark and don't want to wait until tomorrow night. First I have to give the blade a shimmed-temper straightening, as the tip warped to the side some this time. Then, it's clay again, normalize, quench again.

I got my heat right but this blade with the thicker center really wants minimal clay. Next time it's little more than a wash and ashi.

 

[gudspelr]

Thanks for being willing to post all of this. I have enjoyed many of your posts and have read rough various threads multiple times. I would be very curious to see the difference in clay application on your third go at it. Good luck, I hope it goes well.


Jeremy

 

[tryppyr]

We're all pulling for you Salem. That blade is too nice not to come out just right!

 

[Fiddleback]

I think its a beauty. I can't believe you re-did the HT. I loved the initial hamon. Nice work, I can't wait to see it with a handle.

 

[Andy Lewis]

Way to go Salem - dancing with the one you brought!

That first lower temper line looked ideal IMHO for the blade type; irritating that the tip didn't harden properly.

Question: when you re-normalize after a such quench with W2, do you cycle up through highest temps (~1600F) again as you would for simple post-forging stress relief?

Looking forward to seeing the outcome. Guessing maybe a wrap or two of fluorescent orange friction tape....or maybe a keyhole setup?

Thanks for sharing the ups and downs of this saga here.

 

[Willie71]

Have you considered a clayless quench? I have found they give some stunning results when working with thicker blades and unusual shapes. I did my dagger x2 with clay, then went clayless and its the best yet (only at 220g so I have a lot of work to do yet.)

 

[NickWheeler]

Well this sucks Salem... I know all too well how bad it sucks to have a blade come out of the ht with a hamon that isn't what/where you wanted it. :grumpy:

How much has the blade shape changed from the two quenches?

It's an AWESOME blade--- I hope you can get it to do what you want, so that you can finish it up and show it off Salem!

Is it going to be a key-hole handle???

 

[tryppyr]

Nice looking dog, too!

 

[Salem Straub]

Greg, thanks! He's a heck of a dog indeed. We named him "Whitey" of all things...
Third quench attempt yielded an un-fully-hardened tip. I need to build my sword ht forge already! By the time I'd get the heel up to heat, which took a little extra time, the tip would lose just enough heat to get below critical.
The fourth time I quenched it, I had put on just a wash of clay, one horizontal line, and some light and very simple gunome type ashi. Not much more than a suggestion of what the hamon should do.
This time I think I got the results I wanted. It looks as though there will be some very good activity, the line is higher, the tip is good. The hamon dove though, in the last 3/4" or so by the heel so I'll have to get creative about that as I'm not leaving an edge portion with unhardened steel. Maybe a kukri notch after all, or just a reprofiling of the heel shape to a sweeping arc.

Andy Roy, thanks. I always appreciate your input- and I would have kept that first one too had the tip been OK.

Andy Lewis, actually (gasp) I didn't normalize between quenches here. I often do if I have to retry, but I wanted to experiment on this one to see what the results would be if I just went for it again right away. By the third fruiutless quench you can bet I was questioning the wisdom of this approach- honestly the fourth quench was done without prior normalization because it was early in the morning already and I don't know who was more suicidal at that point, me or the blade. ETA: When I do normalize between, I just go back to a normalizing temp of about 1450, a little higher than I quench at.

Willie, I do think this blade would have done fine with a clayless quench. I considered it toward the end, and indeed as I say the last time I clayed it up it was the most minimal clay job I've ever done. I guess the control freak in me wouldn't give up the idea that I was going to command the hamon at least a little bit with clay.

Nick, your commiseration means a lot- I know you've worn out a couple pairs of boots on this frustrating path yourself! I am indebted to what you have shared with all of us sorry hamon heads. It is telling that you thought immediately to ask what had happened to the blade shape. It's more kukri-ish for sure now, added recurve from the sori of four quenches! And since you asked, I am going to try for a keyhole handle. With the way this blade fought me already, I almost feel better about the rest of the job.

It's tempering at 425F shimmed up right now. The edge is fine with no ripple and there is no twist to speak of but the last 1/3 of the blade took a swerve to the mark side about 3/8" at the tip, so gentle corrective measures will ensue.

 

[Salem Straub]

Here are some shots of clayout iterations.
For the second quench, less total clay on the blade and an even thinner secondary layer. Still fooling around with choji-ish ashi.

Going into the third quench. Secondary layer much higher up, ashi thinner and modified a bit.

Going into the fourth quench. Just a line down the blade to guide horizontality and some light minimal gunome ashi to promote activity.

You can bet I'll be doing some test chopping with this blade before I call it good.

 

[tinkerer]

Pretty grinding, and fascinating HT/hamon activity.

Dude, you are WAY too critical. The first HT try looked absolutely great to me.

Larry
Tinkerer

 

[Salem Straub]

There is no negotiation with an unhardened tip. That is, if re-grinding will mess up the profile too much. Thanks for the kind words though!

 

[gudspelr]

Thanks for showing the different clay applications. WIPS are definitely my favorite threads-I love getting to see other's processes. Thanks again for letting us all come along for the ride :thumbup:.


Jeremy

 

[Salem Straub]

Thanks gudspelr. I are a gudspelr to.

Waiting on another short shimmed/clamped temper. This time with another shim and a bit more pressure. It's moving, but slowly.

I know what shimmed tempers and patience will usually get me. I also know what frustration and a 3-point setup in the vise will usually get me. I should just throw the darn 3-point away. I'll only go there anymore if I have a blade that I feel will just be thrown away otherwise.

I don't feel that way about this one.

 

[jawilder]

Thanks for the write up and pics. Really looking forward to watching this one develop.

 

[Willie71]

I got rid of my three point as well. Right out of temper I will coax it by hand, or use shims in temper. I haven't broken a blade since getting rid of the three point.